Buzz Yooper
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Victory model question
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DWalt
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Fact is, most Victories were hot bath oxide blued, not Parkerized. There was only a very small number that were parkerized by S&W. The difference from S&Ws normal finishing practice was that there was no attempt to polish the frame and barrel steel to a high shine before bluing. The metal received only bead blasting, resulting in a dull matte blued finish. The name of the bluing process was Black Magic, from the Hubbard-Hall Company. H-H still makes and sells Black Magic. An alternate name for the finish sometimes used by S&W was "Military Midnight Black." No idea where that name came from.
You may find rebuilt Australian revolvers that were parkerized by them.
You may find rebuilt Australian revolvers that were parkerized by them.
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Matt_X
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That's interesting.
FWIW here's my cheat sheet - its from secondary sources so give it no more credence than any other of its ilk.
Bright Carbonia blue - 1939 to December '41 (no V series revolvers)
Black Magic (a hot dip black oxide) - December '41 to April '42
(Black Magic on sand blasted surface starting in March)
True Parkerization (licensed phosphating process) - May to early June '42
Midnight Black (S&W's own phosphate process) - June '42 to the end
FWIW here's my cheat sheet - its from secondary sources so give it no more credence than any other of its ilk.
Bright Carbonia blue - 1939 to December '41 (no V series revolvers)
Black Magic (a hot dip black oxide) - December '41 to April '42
(Black Magic on sand blasted surface starting in March)
True Parkerization (licensed phosphating process) - May to early June '42
Midnight Black (S&W's own phosphate process) - June '42 to the end
DWalt
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Where did that information about S&W using a proprietary Victory phosphate finish come from? I have never seen anything authoritative even suggesting that. So far as I know, Black Magic was in use for the duration. Maybe that is incorrect, but if so I would like to see some evidence. Some years ago, there was an article in the Journal about the wartime revolver finish. I no longer have it, but I do not remember it mentioning a proprietary phosphate finish. At one time, I believed that there may possibly have been such a thing, but that belief is so far unsubstantiated.
Hot dip oxide blue finishes caught on among most US gun manufacturers in the later 1930s, but S&W stuck with the Carbonia process until the necessity of greatly increasing the production rate forced manufacturing changes after Pearl Harbor.
In Ned Schwing's book, "Winchester Slide Action .22 Rifles," he devotes a fair amount of space to discussing the development of hot dip oxide steel bluing during that period, and its adoption by Winchester in the late 1930s. You are unlikely to find a copy, as it is out of print, and prices for originals are not cheap.
Hot dip oxide blue finishes caught on among most US gun manufacturers in the later 1930s, but S&W stuck with the Carbonia process until the necessity of greatly increasing the production rate forced manufacturing changes after Pearl Harbor.
In Ned Schwing's book, "Winchester Slide Action .22 Rifles," he devotes a fair amount of space to discussing the development of hot dip oxide steel bluing during that period, and its adoption by Winchester in the late 1930s. You are unlikely to find a copy, as it is out of print, and prices for originals are not cheap.
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Yes. The statement that Black Magic (a hot dip black oxide) was used just after the Carbonia blue finsh ended circulated for quite some time. This was often attended by the statement that a "proprietary phosphate finish" was then used after the brief period of Parkerizing. I, myself, actually repeated this narrative in an article I wrote six or seven years ago (now corrected). However, further research has indicated that this sequence is not correct.
Sandblasting and "Black Magic" (oxide) was the go-to after the Carbonia blue ended on early wartime guns. When royalty issues made using the Parker process untenable, S&W went back to oxide, and called it "Black Magic" as before. No one seems to know where the name "Midnight Black" came from but it has been used in Letters of Authenticity in the past. Regardless of what it is called, the dull finish on the vast majority of Victory Models is the same oxide process, whether before or after the experiment with Parkerizing happened in c. May, 1942.
Because the other narrative was circulated so widely, it is still around and probably will be for a long time to come.
Sandblasting and "Black Magic" (oxide) was the go-to after the Carbonia blue ended on early wartime guns. When royalty issues made using the Parker process untenable, S&W went back to oxide, and called it "Black Magic" as before. No one seems to know where the name "Midnight Black" came from but it has been used in Letters of Authenticity in the past. Regardless of what it is called, the dull finish on the vast majority of Victory Models is the same oxide process, whether before or after the experiment with Parkerizing happened in c. May, 1942.
Because the other narrative was circulated so widely, it is still around and probably will be for a long time to come.
ordnanceguy
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Yes, the ejector rods were always blued on new production guns. If you see an ejector rod with a finish other than blued then you know that it has been refinished.
Regards,
Charlie
Walter Rego
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I have a letter from Dr. Jinks from 2007 on a British Service Model revolver and he describes the finish as "military midnight black finish". Another letter from 2007 on a Victory Model also describes it as a "rough military finish called midnight black by the factory".
DWalt
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While it is called a bluing, it is actually a conversion coating of Fe3O4, or magnetite, also referred to as Black Iron Oxide. There are several chemical forms of Iron Oxide. The chemicals in the hot "bluing" oxide bath react with the iron in the steel, forming an extremely thin and tightly adherent layer of Fe3O4 on the steel surface. Cold bluing is chemically something entirely different, as it is not a conversion coating. Rather it is somewhat like an electroless chemical plating of a blackish copper compound.
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DWalt
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I suspect the powers at S&W did not want to advertise any other company's product by name (Black Magic) and came up with another name (Midnight Black) for in-house use.
Hot Oxide bluing is a fairly simple job, mainly dipping a steel part into a hot solution of Caustic Soda (sodium hydroxide) and a nitrate salt, such as ammonium nitrate. There are usually a few other chemical additives included in the bath solution formula. Different chemical manufacturers (such as Hubbard-Hall) offer numerous different formulations suited to specific applications.
Parkerizing (or phosphating), like Oxide bluing, is also a conversion coating process, producing a very thin and adherent phosphate surface coating which is chemically bonded to the Iron atoms in the steel. The phosphated steel is usually dipped into a chromate bath for improved corrosion resistance.
I consider a Parkerized and chromated surface covered with one of the spray and bake Teflon coatings to be about the best you can get for permanence and corrosion resistance. I have applied it to many guns. And it is fairly simple to do it yourself. It's just not as pretty as a shiny bright blued finish.
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Matt_X
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Yes your posts (on gunvaluesboard) and copies of such letters were amongst the sources that went into the crib sheet. being a crib sheet from secondary sources I didn't include detailed citations. I was just trying to fairly quickly learn whether the finish on a Victory at my LGS could have possibly had its original finish.
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