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Question for those who buy and sell through online auction houses frequently:
- Thread starter MT99
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I lost 58 bids in last 10 days. I know there is major shill bidding but my method doesn’t take them into consideration. Bid what you want and let it ride. Don’t play around bidding after that. Bid on another, don’t cost you a dime. Law of averages says you will get one at your price sooner or later.
Watching 3 as we speak, I’m overdue for a hit.
Watching 3 as we speak, I’m overdue for a hit.
DWalt
Member
Set a firm max bid and stick with it. Don’t chase. There will always be another opportunity.
It’s not just online auctions with crooked practices. I went with a friend who consigned some guns with an auction company. The auctioneer told my friend to feel free to run the prices up if he wasn’t happy with the bidding. He told him that he wouldn’t charge any fees if he won any of his own guns.
At another auction house I’ve seen the same guns being sold several times. I knew they had to be pulling the same tricks so I asked the auctioneer about seeing the same guns. He told me that sometimes the winning bidders can’t pay or do pay and decide they don’t like the gun after buying it. That might happen occasionally, but not all the time. This guy holds frequent large gun auctions.
The world is full of crooks, but as the others said, just bid the most you’re comfortable paying and don’t worry too much about the rest.
At another auction house I’ve seen the same guns being sold several times. I knew they had to be pulling the same tricks so I asked the auctioneer about seeing the same guns. He told me that sometimes the winning bidders can’t pay or do pay and decide they don’t like the gun after buying it. That might happen occasionally, but not all the time. This guy holds frequent large gun auctions.
The world is full of crooks, but as the others said, just bid the most you’re comfortable paying and don’t worry too much about the rest.
To be clear, I am not looking for advise on bidding or buying. Just the question asked.
The reason I am asking is because I see guns featured in the big catalogs the send me. The are hammered "sold", then I see them in their next catalog.
So, I see two possibilities. First, the consignor is allowed to run up the bid and doesn't get charged if they are the high bidder. Or second, there is a reserve and they announce that it is sold rather than didn't meet the reserve. Just trying to understand the process better.
The reason I am asking is because I see guns featured in the big catalogs the send me. The are hammered "sold", then I see them in their next catalog.
So, I see two possibilities. First, the consignor is allowed to run up the bid and doesn't get charged if they are the high bidder. Or second, there is a reserve and they announce that it is sold rather than didn't meet the reserve. Just trying to understand the process better.
I'm not a bottom-feeder who bids on things willy-nilly.
My "want list" is narrow and specific. If I see one on my list on an
auction I get excited. Most of the ones I "want" don't attract shills.
My modus oporandi is to bid during the last 15 minutes (or
whatever the auction's standard time lag is).
For the most part the folks I outbid are familiar to me. I track what
they bid on, and I usually know how far they'll go.
I win the ones I want.
My "want list" is narrow and specific. If I see one on my list on an
auction I get excited. Most of the ones I "want" don't attract shills.
My modus oporandi is to bid during the last 15 minutes (or
whatever the auction's standard time lag is).
For the most part the folks I outbid are familiar to me. I track what
they bid on, and I usually know how far they'll go.
I win the ones I want.
Model19man
SWCA Member
Well it is difficult to understand because different places play by different rules and they do not share their rules beforehand. Just bid what you are comfortable paying. Take any fees and taxes into consideration too. Let others play their games.
I’ve bought a few from the big online auction
It does appear to me that for some guns that are “Desirable” it is not uncommon to see bidders with zero feedback run the price up. And some of these bidders can have up to a few years being established and others might be very new accounts. Some may be legit. But In my opinion there is plenty of shill bidding going on.
It does appear to me that for some guns that are “Desirable” it is not uncommon to see bidders with zero feedback run the price up. And some of these bidders can have up to a few years being established and others might be very new accounts. Some may be legit. But In my opinion there is plenty of shill bidding going on.
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I have noticed that as well with the timed auction sites. I am more curious about the live auction sites.
To answer your question, yes there are always shill bidders, and yes there are hidden reserves.The answers given here just show that those things are irrelevant to buyer's who know what they're doing.
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Shill Bidders
Drm50 Dwalt
You are correct ton of bs Bidders! all I'm going to add is a 2nd on what they have spoken to. I never claim to be expert on the matter, but I see this happen just about every time I'm bidding.
Some of the sites that are not for auction but straight up buying are ones I prefer. Not always a huge price break as the sellers know what they are selling and said value of the item. A plus is you can make an offer they may go for especially if it has been sitting for a long time. The worst they can do is ignore you or counter.
Cities
Drm50 Dwalt
You are correct ton of bs Bidders! all I'm going to add is a 2nd on what they have spoken to. I never claim to be expert on the matter, but I see this happen just about every time I'm bidding.
Some of the sites that are not for auction but straight up buying are ones I prefer. Not always a huge price break as the sellers know what they are selling and said value of the item. A plus is you can make an offer they may go for especially if it has been sitting for a long time. The worst they can do is ignore you or counter.
Cities
silicosys4
Member
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When I consigned some of my guns for auction through a very well reputed consignor, I was told that if I didn't like the prices my guns were going for, I always had the option of "buying" them back through the auction, as long as I paid the consignment fee for my winning bid.
Of course, the following is just my opinion, but I have been on both sides of the aisle since the Internet was in its infancy. There are so many stories with NO proof and others just strike me as "conspiracy theories"?? I buy and sell online and find no evidence of attempted fraud so far. As for auction houses, pick your auctions carefully since I cannot be sure about all of the 2nd tier houses. There are so many places out there today and maybe there is a few shady companies attempting to inflate prices, but chances are they will not last too long. If they are out there, it is a strong possibility that companies who buy back too many guns will end up in bankruptcy.
Just because someone beats you out with no feedback from time to time, it is no way indicative of fraud. Lots of new bidders registering every day on the big online auction sites and many do not know what they are bidding on or know the true value of what they are bidding on. I win and lose bids all the time and never have any evidence that any wrongdoing was the reason. Gunbroker, for example, recently celebrated the fact that they have listed 1 billion items for sale. They are not the buyer or the seller, just the broker. As many will recall, there is a lot of information needed in order to become a member, including getting a "handle". I have never seen a seller's handle used in the bidding, and it is quite hard to register again with a different "handle" with all new information that is required. If registering twice is possible, the seller is shooting himself in the foot to bid his item and win very often. Besides it is almost impossible for GB employees to find the time to pick out auctions they want to inflate the prices on. Please read the following:
Just a moment...
Practice due diligence, pick your max price and stick to it, and do not forget to add in all the extra costs including sales tax before hitting the bid/buy button. Most of all, try to enjoy the experience. Perhaps most importantly, do not always blame something or someone for losing items.
Just because someone beats you out with no feedback from time to time, it is no way indicative of fraud. Lots of new bidders registering every day on the big online auction sites and many do not know what they are bidding on or know the true value of what they are bidding on. I win and lose bids all the time and never have any evidence that any wrongdoing was the reason. Gunbroker, for example, recently celebrated the fact that they have listed 1 billion items for sale. They are not the buyer or the seller, just the broker. As many will recall, there is a lot of information needed in order to become a member, including getting a "handle". I have never seen a seller's handle used in the bidding, and it is quite hard to register again with a different "handle" with all new information that is required. If registering twice is possible, the seller is shooting himself in the foot to bid his item and win very often. Besides it is almost impossible for GB employees to find the time to pick out auctions they want to inflate the prices on. Please read the following:
Just a moment...
Practice due diligence, pick your max price and stick to it, and do not forget to add in all the extra costs including sales tax before hitting the bid/buy button. Most of all, try to enjoy the experience. Perhaps most importantly, do not always blame something or someone for losing items.
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That's what I do. I lose most of the auctions, but I do win some
every now and then.
every now and then.
This is off-topic some, and after I get through running my mouth I might find out I don't know what I'm talking about---because it's been a looooooooooooong time since I bought anything on auction---or any place else---and "time passes and things change".
For openers, if you bid off site by any other means than by phone, it's going to cost extra at the end (and if you bid via "Proxibid" (or whatever they call it), it's going to cost you A LOT!!). There may be an exception to that, and that is there at least used to be one house (RIA?) where you could give them a maximum amount you were willing to pay, and they would bid for you. I used that A LOT---got A LOT of good stuff----and NEVER ended up spending my limit.
If you pay by other than check, it's also going to cost you more.
Now each and every one of these things is spelled out in the auction catalogs, and judging by the fussing and fuming we see here, there are more than a few folks who don't bother reading them----as in a self inflicted wound!
As to shill bidders and hidden reserves, I can't say about shill bidders because I don't know how to know. I'm hard pressed to understand "hidden reserves" because reserves aren't hidden---they're right out front with the opening bid requirement---although it seems like those are not always known up front---only after the fact of not being sold----never mind the auctioneer may have indicated otherwise.
Now-----Gun Broker: I don't know diddly about them either---never mind a goodly portion of my collection was sold via GB. That was all handled by my agent (David Carroll)---who was my agent because he knows what and how to do the deed, and does it VERY well.
Ralph Tremaine
Having now read that which came before, one more comment: One above noted he bid only during the last fifteen minutes (or whatever). I took that one step further: I bid by phone. I tell my intermediary I won't be making any bids---to just tell me when it's time to buy the gun. Then I buy it----or not.
The "or not" first came to pass at an auction who's name escapes me, but I was on the hunt for a Triple Lock Target---figured I could get a nice one for $5500 (20 some odd years ago) I'd told the nice lady on the phone with me to just tell me when it was time to buy the gun. About two seconds later, she said, "He's at $7000, do you want to go to $7500?" "Uh, no Ma'am---thank you---I'm out!" I'm in a blue funk for a couple of months, and the phone rings. It's an SWCA member making cold calls out of the SWCA Roster. That conversation goes like this: "Ralph, I see in the Roster you collect targets." "Yes." "Do you have a Triple Lock?' "No." "Do you want one?" "Yes!" "Ralph, we have one. It doesn't fit in our collection, and we want to sell it----Ralph, it's the best one we've ever seen!" "For how much?" "$5500." "What's the least you'll take?" "$5250." "SOLD!"
The moral of this tale is THERE IS A GOD!!
The last chapter in the tale came about a year ago. That gun was the last one sold during the liquidation of my collection---fetched $10,000!!
There for sure is a GOD!
As to bidding at all, I never did----seems like it's an invitation for your competitors to raise your bid----and they do a good job of raising the bids without me playing the game.
There was one exception to that: There's an auction of donated items at SWCA annual meetings. Jim Supica is the auctioneer. There was one item I wanted------and was going to have----NO MATTER WHAT!! I sat in the front row so most all could see me. I raised my hand at the first call for bids---and NEVER took it down! The message to my competitors was as noted above---This one's mine---NO MATTER WHAT!!
Supica was having a hard time not laughing.
For openers, if you bid off site by any other means than by phone, it's going to cost extra at the end (and if you bid via "Proxibid" (or whatever they call it), it's going to cost you A LOT!!). There may be an exception to that, and that is there at least used to be one house (RIA?) where you could give them a maximum amount you were willing to pay, and they would bid for you. I used that A LOT---got A LOT of good stuff----and NEVER ended up spending my limit.
If you pay by other than check, it's also going to cost you more.
Now each and every one of these things is spelled out in the auction catalogs, and judging by the fussing and fuming we see here, there are more than a few folks who don't bother reading them----as in a self inflicted wound!
As to shill bidders and hidden reserves, I can't say about shill bidders because I don't know how to know. I'm hard pressed to understand "hidden reserves" because reserves aren't hidden---they're right out front with the opening bid requirement---although it seems like those are not always known up front---only after the fact of not being sold----never mind the auctioneer may have indicated otherwise.
Now-----Gun Broker: I don't know diddly about them either---never mind a goodly portion of my collection was sold via GB. That was all handled by my agent (David Carroll)---who was my agent because he knows what and how to do the deed, and does it VERY well.
Ralph Tremaine
Having now read that which came before, one more comment: One above noted he bid only during the last fifteen minutes (or whatever). I took that one step further: I bid by phone. I tell my intermediary I won't be making any bids---to just tell me when it's time to buy the gun. Then I buy it----or not.
The "or not" first came to pass at an auction who's name escapes me, but I was on the hunt for a Triple Lock Target---figured I could get a nice one for $5500 (20 some odd years ago) I'd told the nice lady on the phone with me to just tell me when it was time to buy the gun. About two seconds later, she said, "He's at $7000, do you want to go to $7500?" "Uh, no Ma'am---thank you---I'm out!" I'm in a blue funk for a couple of months, and the phone rings. It's an SWCA member making cold calls out of the SWCA Roster. That conversation goes like this: "Ralph, I see in the Roster you collect targets." "Yes." "Do you have a Triple Lock?' "No." "Do you want one?" "Yes!" "Ralph, we have one. It doesn't fit in our collection, and we want to sell it----Ralph, it's the best one we've ever seen!" "For how much?" "$5500." "What's the least you'll take?" "$5250." "SOLD!"
The moral of this tale is THERE IS A GOD!!
The last chapter in the tale came about a year ago. That gun was the last one sold during the liquidation of my collection---fetched $10,000!!
There for sure is a GOD!
As to bidding at all, I never did----seems like it's an invitation for your competitors to raise your bid----and they do a good job of raising the bids without me playing the game.
There was one exception to that: There's an auction of donated items at SWCA annual meetings. Jim Supica is the auctioneer. There was one item I wanted------and was going to have----NO MATTER WHAT!! I sat in the front row so most all could see me. I raised my hand at the first call for bids---and NEVER took it down! The message to my competitors was as noted above---This one's mine---NO MATTER WHAT!!
Supica was having a hard time not laughing.
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The collector class who goes in to buy, full speed ahead- hammer down is who runs prices out of sight. There are 2 rules of gun dealing, 1st is you don’t win an auction. That term has been vandalized by auction companies to ease the burn of the guy that just paid top dollar for his “win”. Second is guys “finding” something at a show. You can’t do it because you can’t find something that isn’t lost. Once in a great while you run into a deal but it’s not the norm.
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I have sold a lot of guns on GB. Over the years I have noticed that I get a lot of bidders with an NR rating, meaning they have no feedback. Some have had an account for years, so I assume they are bottom feeders and have never gotten any super cheap bargains.
Most of the bids from NR bidders are new guys. They are not shills, they are just new guys. I have wondered why I get so many bids from brand new bidders. I have come to assume it is because I am good at using key words that help them find my auctions, I write a good description, I post plenty of pics, I state all my terms clearly, offer a 3 Day Inspection, and have a good rep.
For these same reasons, I get very few questions from bidders, and half of the questions I do get are answered in the ad, but they have to read it!
I have sold many of the NR bidders the gun and wind up posting their first FB.
Sell enough guns on GB and you will encounter every kind of idiot God has made----
>Had a new guy buy a nice Python years ago. Sent him my contact email with all details. He answers back saying he has bought 10 guns this week and will get back to me when he decides which ones he will take!
He also said he wanted a Python from the 60s, and mine had 1974 in the title of the ad! He quickly amassed 5 or 6 F's and was kicked off..... >Had a guy call me up and chew me out for using 3 Day Priority Mail instead of 2 Day. I patiently explained that 2 Day or 3 Day is determined by the Post Office and based on location of both parties and distance. Their is no choice offered. He said I was cheap and knew I was lying because he got lots of packages in 2 Days. Welcome to my "Blocked Bidder" List.
>Had a guy leave me a B on this. NOTE my response. Again, welcome to my "Blocked Bidder" List.
:I have lots of idiots on my Blocked Bidder List.
Life is too short to suffer fools gladly.
This never struck me as a mystery, but auctions are in business to sell whatever AT TOP DOLLAR!!
Ralph Tremaine
OH-----and that makes them a good place to sell stuff----not so much a good place to buy it!
Ralph Tremaine
OH-----and that makes them a good place to sell stuff----not so much a good place to buy it!
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How to handle shills and reserves.......
Decide what you will pay for a gun. You may not want to post that right away, but a lower number. Go back every so often, see what the action is and adjust your bid according. If it gets over the price that you want to pay. STOP. Find another gun and bid on it. That way you'll never pay more that you want and you may end up with a price lower than you expected.
Decide what you will pay for a gun. You may not want to post that right away, but a lower number. Go back every so often, see what the action is and adjust your bid according. If it gets over the price that you want to pay. STOP. Find another gun and bid on it. That way you'll never pay more that you want and you may end up with a price lower than you expected.
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