a good bill

[cracker57]

West Virginia house passes bill to allow teachers with training to carry.
I see this as a good thing, what would the pros and cons be?

[pharmer]

I taught Math at a local High School for 14 years. Having "officially sanctioned carry status" would inevitably lead to some byzantine "code of armed emergency conduct" which no mere mortal would be able to navigate unscathed. I may or may not have carried during my career but I'm the only one who knows for sure. Joe

[glowe]

That is a tough one. My guess is that most teachers are not shooters and many likely never shot a firearm. CCW courses, in my mind, do not qualify people how to handle an emergency such as an active shooter in a classroom. Combine that with those teachers who never held a firearm before CCW training and what do you have?

[Buick]

Always thought they should just let CHL holding teachers carry without restriction and be responsible for their own actions.

[cmj8591]

Originally Posted by cracker57

West Virginia house passes bill to allow teachers with training to carry.
I see this as a good thing, what would the pros and cons be?

I got involved in some cross training with the local schools when we were setting up our active shooter doctrine. And know that I'm painting with a broad brush a bit here, because there are certainly a few exceptions, but bear with me. Most of the teachers I dealt with are not much better than the kids they are teaching. In fact, some of the kids I know are more mature. There is no way that they could manage a gun in a real active shooter situation. When we did our walk through s with SRT, Some of them were visibly petrified. And this was just walk through so that everyone could get a feel for the buildings. No long guns or simunitions or any kind of scenario training. Just a bunch of cops walking around the building. Some of them had tears in their eyes they were so upset. There were no kids around when we did these. Now this in no way means that I think that this shouldn't be done. In fact, there are some teachers I know, ex military or LE, who would be excellent for it. But if they are going to do it, it has to come with a lot of training and they need to be sure who they are letting carry. Having said that, I absolutely believe that every school should have some type of armed response available at all times.

[diyj98]

The WV Senate also passed a bill allowing military veterans and retired LEO's to carry within the schools. Neither bill may end up passing the other chamber. Even if one does, education is extremely liberal in general and individual county board of educations may not allow teachers to carry firearms. I'm not a huge fan of the Senate bill because my understanding it that while military veteran who might know very little about firearms could carry, someone with vast training and firearms experience couldn't because they weren't a veteran or retired LEO. I know a number of people who served in the military that know practically nothing about firearms.

As a former WV school employee, I know our Board was generally anti firearms. We had a great deal of debate on allowing school air gun teams in our county. I was actually asked to find a legal reason why we could prevent the air guns. Luckily I wasn't able to find a legal reason to say no, so the board and superintendent had to agree under pressure from the community.

[326MOD10]

Neighboring Ohio has an excellent training program for arming teachers that has had input from TDI Ohio on curriculum and qualifications.

It is not a rubber stamp for whoever comes along and they have failures.

Most people would be surprised that not every policeman is some shootist like in the movies

Proper standards, selection and training and it can work. Has been for a few years in Ohio.

[pawngal]

Speaking from experience in Iowa, 2 school districts local to me voted to allow armed school personnel. Not necessarily teachers, might be the principal or the lunch lady, whoever volunteered. They went through the same training as a LE officer. But they had to drop the program or lose the district's insurance. Some kind of state insurance regulation will need to be changed to allow it.

[BE Mike]

Motivated school teachers can learn to shoot handguns at least as accurately as LEO's. Letting them have the ability to defend themselves and their students is a much better option than having them slaughtered by some maniac. The biggest problem I see is the ability of LEO's to identify armed teachers as friendlies in an active shooter scenario.

[cracker57]

So from the responses to this I would say it is in agreement this would be a good thing with proper training.
The funny thing is a lot of people think teachers should have extensive training but constitutional carry is a good thing for the general public. Go figure..

[Sevens]

What would the Pro’s and Con’s be, you say?

I would say the CON is that it’s ridiculous to need State-level legislation for a free American to exercise their God given rights that also happen to be enumerated in the first Ten Amendments of the Constitution.

Mark that down as a “Con.”

[glowe]

You cannot compare any training offered by the "Education Department" of a city or county to come even close to police training. You cannot be certain that monthly, or even yearly refreshers will conducted, as this it not a teacher's job! Police take their training to the field immediately and are immersed in law enforcement and emergency situations each and every day. Teachers, on the other hand hopefully will never have to use a weapon for their entire career, but if it happens 10 years from now, how much can anyone remember. I also fear that adding weapons to the school could end up with them being taken by force and used against the teacher and students. Schools today are nothing like many of us remember from schools decades ago.

Trained law enforcement from departments on a rotating basis, or off duty, may be the best option for schools.

[BE Mike]

Originally Posted by glowe

Trained law enforcement from departments on a rotating basis, or off duty, may be the best option for schools.

I don't think that worked out so well in Uvalde, Texas.

[glowe]

Originally Posted by BE Mike

I don't think that worked out so well in Uvalde, Texas.

I do not believe there were any officers patrolling the halls when the shooting started??

[ken158]

Originally Posted by Buick

Always thought they should just let CHL holding teachers carry without restriction and be responsible for their own actions.

Buying a license absolutely does not certify you to be the protector of a classroom of students. There needs to be a lot of training and close coordination with local police and your school resource officer. SRO presence has been demanded by parents instead of blanket coverage by teachers. A SRO will have training, equipment, knowledge of the building layout and communication with dispatch for emergency assistance.

[John Patrick]

Originally Posted by glowe

That is a tough one. My guess is that most teachers are not shooters and many likely never shot a firearm. CCW courses, in my mind, do not qualify people how to handle an emergency such as an active shooter in a classroom. Combine that with those teachers who never held a firearm before CCW training and what do you have?

Someone far better suited to handle an active shooter situation than the same individual without a gun.

[pharmer]

Originally Posted by Buick

Always thought they should just let CHL holding teachers carry without restriction and be responsible for their own actions.

You really need to stop that rational practical thinking. It really hurts the "village." Joe

[Sevens]

Originally Posted by ken158

Buying a license absolutely does not certify you to be the protector of a classroom of students.

How about we dial this down a notch.

This teacher has every right to protect THEMSELVES from a nutjob armed attacker regardless of whether their work day is loaded with dogs/cats, babies, students, produce, floor tile, automotive parts, smartphones and watches, burgers & fries, priceless works of art or pea gravel.

[John Patrick]

Originally Posted by ken158

Buying a license absolutely does not certify you to be the protector of a classroom of students. There needs to be a lot of training and close coordination with local police and your school resource officer. SRO presence has been demanded by parents instead of blanket coverage by teachers. A SRO will have training, equipment, knowledge of the building layout and communication with dispatch for emergency assistance.

Yea, sure. How’d that work out in FL and TX?

[pasound]

I am a lifelong West Virginian, gun owner, and retired museum employee. I have a lot of friends who are or were teachers, and they have very mixed feelings on this, mostly negative. I'm not sure this bill is a good thing. Seems a bill funding a trained LEO or other qualified security person is a better idea.

[cmj8591]

Originally Posted by Sevens

How about we dial this down a notch.

This teacher has every right to protect THEMSELVES from a nutjob armed attacker regardless of whether their work day is loaded with dogs/cats, babies, students, produce, floor tile, automotive parts, smartphones and watches, burgers & fries, priceless works of art or pea gravel.

That's not the issue. No one is saying that anyone doesn't have the right to protect themselves. The issue here is protecting the people who they are in charge of. This is not a gun rights question. This is a security question. It is much better in an active shooter situation to have someone there who's only job is to engage the shooter. That's the argument for having armed police or security who can quickly engage the threat and does not have to worry about a classroom full of little kids. A big question is what does that armed teacher do with their class when the shooting starts? I'm not so sure you would want teachers leaving them behind to go looking for a shooter. Maybe, maybe not but if you look at that one question, it gives an idea of how dynamic these situations can get. If the armed teacher is part of a layered approach which includes controlled entry and dedicated response, then maybe it makes sense. But I don't think that arming teachers in and of itself is any kind of panacea. The biggest problems right now is getting the educational leaders to talk about the problem and getting them to dedicate resources to addressing it. Right now it's mostly a whistling past the graveyard approach.

[Sevens]

But I don't think that arming teachers in and of itself is any kind of panacea.

I agree. I also agree that legislation is not likely EVER going to provide a panacea for… dang near anything.

Right now most teachers anywhere/everywhere are denied their rights to their own personal protection. I agree that legislation will not convert a math teacher to an elite counter-assasin. I find it ludicrous that teachers are denied their own rights because children are present.

For parents who screech at the potential danger of their own children in the presence of an armed teacher I would suggest that home schooling is an option for them and I might also suggest that statistically speaking, their child’s ride to school (or ride to ANY destination) is statistically more dangerous than a school shooter or “danger” from an armed teacher with poor tactical training.

We’ve probably got a large mass of citizens whose reaction to horrific tragedy is “why can’t they do SOMETHING?!” This is, of course an emotional response of precious little tangible value.

How many known instances have we had where panicked armed teachers have mowed down unintended innocents in a spray & pray response to a violent attack?

How many boogiemans might we agree that legislation can eliminate?

[Steve K]

There are many issues to consider as many have in this thread.
A couple things come to mind. Teachers who volunteer for the program should be afforded the proper training such as the same training LEOs receive. Also, those teachers should be compensated for their time or get release time to attend the training. There should also be recurring training. The course should not only consider how to shoot, but when to shoot. Something the police academy I attended stressed.
I often think about the school shootings and the possible result had the teachers, administrators or other staff had been armed. The shooter in Newton, CT hit the administration meeting first. Had one or all of them been armed those kindergarteners lost would be in high school now.

[GypsmJim]

A friend was a teacher back in the 1980's when the union first broke in. As a Conservative Christian and vocal Republican, naturally she opposed it. She was also a 30 year veteran of that school system. Most of the supporters were youngins. She received many death threats.

My wife is now a teacher in the same school. The stuff she tells me would make the hair stand up on the back of your head. To call the teachers bloody liberals would be an understatement. We hope that her contemporaries never find out she is an NRA card carrying member, belongs to a gun club and has a pistol permit and she also shoots an AR at our camp.

I vote con. She would probably the only one carrying and would suffer a lot of verbal abuse. Besides, our schools are fully equipped with armed security guards. They man the entry doors with TSA-like metal detectors. The only thing they don't do is search the teachers, and that should be a procedure as well.

[Rustyt1953]

Our County Sheriff, Richard Jones, is all for training and arming willing school staff members. Several schools are on board with him.

At present 4 of my grandchildren are home schooled.

[Eddie Southgate]

Originally Posted by glowe

That is a tough one. My guess is that most teachers are not shooters and many likely never shot a firearm. CCW courses, in my mind, do not qualify people how to handle an emergency such as an active shooter in a classroom. Combine that with those teachers who never held a firearm before CCW training and what do you have?

In the eight grade 3 out of five of my teachers were WWII combat vets . One of the other two looked like one but she wasn't.

[luvsmiths]

Originally Posted by glowe

I do not believe there were any officers patrolling the halls when the shooting started??

No.

They were hiding in the parking lot.

[wproct]

So, I'm trying to wrap my mind around this. An active shooter is reported in a school. Police show up and are trying to enter the building and see a half dozen people/teachers brandishing weapons. Do you think that might be a little bit of a challenge for police to determine for sure who is the active shooter? Just asking.

[Frailer]

I taught high school for 11 years after retiring from the Army. I’ve thought about this issue a great deal, and after one of the high-profile school shootings I was approached by my district’s superintendent asking if I would be willing to volunteer to carry if the board passed such a policy.

Long story short, and IMHO, having teachers carry handguns is a monumentally bad idea, for several reasons, not the least of which is the fact that a handgun is the wrong tool for the job. There wasn’t a hallway in our school that was less than 50 meters long, and most were longer.

During the discussion with my superintendent I suggested that if he wished me to be armed I would use the locked storage room in my classroom to hold a locked firearm case or job box containing a *rifle*. In the end the policy was never enacted, but I did keep a spare key to our SRO’s vehicle on my keyring in order to be able to access his patrol rifle in an emergency.

I won’t even go into some of my other reasons other than to say that having on-body guns in the classroom raises any number of potential problems.

[luvsmiths]

Originally Posted by Frailer

I taught high school for 11 years after retiring from the Army. I’ve thought about this issue a great deal, and after one of the high-profile school shootings I was approached by my district’s superintendent asking if I would be willing to volunteer to carry if the board passed such a policy.

Long story short, and IMHO, having teachers carry handguns is a monumentally bad idea, for several reasons, not the least of which is the fact that a handgun is the wrong tool for the job. There wasn’t a hallway in our school that was less than 50 meters long, and most were longer.

During the discussion with my superintendent I suggested that if he wished me to be armed I would use the locked storage room in my classroom to hold a locked firearm case or job box containing a *rifle*. In the end the policy was never enacted, but I did keep a spare key to our SRO’s vehicle on my keyring in order to be able to access his patrol rifle in an emergency.

I won’t even go into some of my other reasons other than to say that having on-body guns in the classroom raises any number of potential problems.

So the city allowed you, a school teacher, to have a key to a city owned Police Vehicle, to access what I will assume is an City Owned Police M4, as a civilian school teacher, to then enter the school with a M4 ( "His Patrol Rifle") belonging to the City, to address an active shooter inside the school, (dressed) as a civilian school teacher?

Not being snarky- just trying to see this clear, cause it sounds crazier than a teacher with a pistol

[Yaworski]

Originally Posted by luvsmiths

So the city allowed you, a school teacher, to have a key to a city Police Vehicle

Maybe he isn't allowed and just acquired a key through less than upright means.

[Frailer]

Originally Posted by luvsmiths

So the city allowed you, a school teacher, to have a key to a city owned Police Vehicle, to access what I will assume is an City Owned Police M4, as a civilian school teacher, to then enter the school with a M4 ( "His Patrol Rifle") belonging to the City, to address an active shooter inside the school, (dressed) as a civilian school teacher?

Not being snarky- just trying to see this clear, cause it sounds crazier than a teacher with a pistol

I, an employee of the county, was entrusted to access county property in the event of a legitimate emergency.

It is a small, rural community. I knew all the city and county cops, and they all knew me. Furthermore, I had a radio with which I could communicate with anyone responding.

Edited to add: to be clear, *me* acting as a first responder was not the primary plan. If an incident occurred my immediate responsibility would have been to the young people under my care at the moment. I would have been a contingency in the event everything went to hell in a handbasket.

IMHO, too many people in authority are attempting to find a one-size-fits-all solution to this problem. Such solutions do not exist.

[Kaarde]

I realize there are many pros/cons to the issue proposed in this bill. Might I suggest a different approach. Please excuse the thread drift.


There hasn't been a mass school shooting for a bit. Most likely, there will be another one. There is always a call to do something to keep this from "ever happening again" and a lot of empty talk by politicians and authorities to make sure it doesn't. Other than useless posturing and enacting ineffective gun laws no real solutions are put in place. I don't see or hear of any real efforts to make our schools less of a soft target. Granted, this would cost money and might make life for students and parents a little less convenient.



It's interesting in this country, that we can put in place measures at our county courthouses and other city, state, and federal buildings that protect those that work in these places. Why can't we take a similar approach to our schools. Many of these shooters most likely would not have attacked a school that had a measures in place to fend off an armed intruder. However, we don't see a nationwide effort to harden schools and put in place measures that protect one of our most valuable and defenseless populations. Why is that?


Do those that say they want to stop the killing of innocent children really mean that? I'm sure some do, or is it just too convenient to make it about the guns?


Food for thought..

[biku324]

If you want schools safe from armed intruders, you need Entry Control Points with armed, trained personnel, two minimum per ECP with 4 better (and unavoidable metal detectors), whose only job is screening people and bags coming into school buildings.

This isn't rocket science. Half-measures, like arming teachers, will work fine if nothing happens.

[cmj8591]

Originally Posted by biku324

If you want schools safe from armed intruders, you need Entry Control Points with armed, trained personnel, two minimum per ECP with 4 better (and unavoidable metal detectors), whose only job is screening people and bags coming into school buildings.

This isn't rocket science. Half-measures, like arming teachers, will work fine if nothing happens.

Another observation that I made is that teachers have no concept of what it means to lock doors and no one running the system has any inclination to hold them accountable. It was like we were speaking Klingon when we tried to emphasize how important it is to limit the number of access points. I came away from my experiences amazed that there are not more incidents than there are.

[cmj8591]

Originally Posted by Yaworski

Maybe he isn't allowed and just acquired a key through less than upright means.

Having spent a little bit of time being responsible for one of those units, I wouldn't give a key to it to my mother without someone with more bars than me telling me to.

[John Patrick]

I think something missing from the conversation is the deterrent effect of the mere potential for armed teachers in schools.

We know that known “gun free” zones are attractive targets to nutbags and criminals. We all know the opposite, the probability of armed non-LEO citizens drops violent crime precipitously.

We also know that SRO’s are a mixed bag, with very high expense and a record that is unenviable.

Some doubt about the armed/not armed status of a teacher isn’t a bad thing, imo.

[cmj8591]

Just in case you need an example of how dysfunctional the public education system in Massachusetts is, here it is. All those years of throwing money at it has come to this.

Unruly high school asks Massachusetts National Guard to restore order - ABC News

[Rpg]

I’ve always been skeptical of the average person being armed in the schools, unless they have training comparable to the Gunsite first level course.

[biku324]

In November, 1999 one of my SRT officers was 60 or 70 feet from a fatal school shooting in the crowded lobby of Deming Middle School. He grabbed his AR15-A3 with which he was expert; he had been on the SRT a couple of years. He made entry into the school, immediately identified the still-armed shooter and had a clear shot from cover. He waited; eventually the shooter was talked down with no further shots fired, although the old 22 revolver was later found to have firing pin marks on 3 more cartridges.

Why didn't he fire? Because he was a human being first, and the shooter was a 12 year-old boy. Ross said during the debrief, emotionally, "...he was a little kid."

Now tell me how an armed teacher would do in the same circumstance.

The most common age of a shooter is 17, followed by 16, 18, and 15. - K-12 School Shooting Statistics: 52 Years of Data - Campus Safety

[Yaworski]

Originally Posted by Sevens

Right now most teachers anywhere/everywhere are denied their rights to their own personal protection.

That's the case nearly everywhere. I worked for many companies, large and small, and nearly everyone had a stated "no weapons" policy and usually they looked at me sideways because I carry a pocket knife. Part of it is "virtue signalling" because they want to make people feel "safe." Part of it is they don't want accidents happening when someone goes "Hey Jim! Lookit mah new gun!" Bang! Now there's a hole in someone's desk or an expensive piece of equipment.

[Yaworski]

Originally Posted by glowe

Police take their training to the field immediately and are immersed in law enforcement and emergency situations each and every day.

An oft cited fact is that most police officers go their entire career without having to draw their pistol in "anger."

[WR Moore]

Adding to the issue raised by biku, the target company that complied with a request for photographic training targets featuring children (under 18) as threats was hounded out of business after it became public. Might not have been the only reason they went under, but it was probably a major contributor.

I can feel for the guy he mentions.

[Yaworski]

Originally Posted by glowe

My guess is that most teachers are not shooters and many likely never shot a firearm.

Most cops and soldiers are not shooters and most have never touched a gun before joining up.

[Yaworski]

Originally Posted by cmj8591

When we did our walk through s with SRT, Some of them were visibly petrified. And this was just walk through so that everyone could get a feel for the buildings. No long guns or simunitions or any kind of scenario training. Just a bunch of cops walking around the building. Some of them had tears in their eyes they were so upset.

Bear in mind that most people don't know how to deal with emergencies and in your event you were confronting people who believed that their school was a refuge with the idea that bad things can happen.

[Sevens]

A 12-year old murderer in 1999 would be 37 years old today. Because his first (known) murder was at 12 and he was a minor, I expect we don’t know his name.

I’d certainly be curious of how the next 25 of his life went, or however many of them he was alive to see.

[taz666]

How much more responsibility for our children are teachers going to be expected to bring to the table?

[biku324]

Originally Posted by Sevens

A 12-year old murderer in 1999 would be 37 years old today. Because his first (known) murder was at 12 and he was a minor, I expect we don’t know his name.

I’d certainly be curious of how the next 25 of his life went, or however many of them he was alive to see.

Knock yourself out! Victor M. Cordova, Jr. He was released in 2003 and in prison again by 2004 for drug trafficking on the border. He was released in 2009. Dunno since.

Name: VICTOR MANUEL CORDOVA
Register Number: 29698-051
Age: 36
Race: White
Sex: Male
Released On: 02/13/2009

[Yaworski]

Originally Posted by taz666

How much more responsibility for our children are teachers going to be expected to bring to the table?

I don't expect teachers to go out and hunt down the shooter but if I was in a situation with a shooter, I'd like to be armed in the event that he finds my place of refuge.

[Yaworski]

There are roughly 125,000 k-12 schools in the United States, both public and private. Considering a 36 week school year, if one school was attacked every week, it would take almost 3,500 years to hit each school in the country.

School shootings are a dramatic problem but they are not an epidemic or pandemic. What it has done was allowed the government to intrude deeper into our lives. It has also created the new industry of "school security" to sell overpriced products to school districts.