Illegal Immigrants can Possess Firearms

[ggibson511960]

Federal Judge Sharon Johnson Coleman of the U.S. Federal District Court of Northern Illinois has ruled that illegal immigrants may legally possess firearms. She dismissed prosecution case against illegal immigrant Heriberto Carbajal-Flores arguing the Bruen case broadened the 2nd Amendment context and scope to include illegal immigrants.

Judge Coleman, appointed by Barack Obama, was surely torn between progressive/liberal leniency towards illegal immigrants and antipathy towards any gun rights.

[CH4]

FOID card?
Wonder how the 7th will handle this?

[djohns6]

NOTHING surprises me . I think I know what the end game is though . More gun legislation to combat the rising crime rate that they created .

[hkcavalier]

Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven would approve.

[ladder13]

Can felons in jail (they need protection too), wife beaters, dopers, etc, be far behind?

Maybe a good time to buy stock in gun manufacturers.

[Frailer]

I’ve not read the text of the decision, but IMHO the right to bear arms is a *human* right.

Meaning it applies to everyone.

[twodog max]

I cannot agree with this decision. As these individuals have demonstrated a disregard for the laws of this country. The rights and privilege's thereof should not extend to them. A bus trip south is in order.

[Rustyt1953]

[Buford57]

2nd Amendment advocates have long argued that it should be on equal footing with the 1st, 4th, 5th and 6th. Since we do.not limit the right to worship, or a fair trial or advice of counsel to citizens, this appears to be what we asked for. There are pending suits challenging the whole FOID system. Again, this is the hoped-for outcome, that post-Bruen a FOID requirement is an unconstitutional infringement. Now if some brave judge will just apply it to US citizens.

[hdfinder47]

Originally Posted by Frailer

I’ve not read the text of the decision, but IMHO the right to bear arms is a *human* right.

Meaning it applies to everyone.

I thought the Second Amendment of the US Constitution applied to American citizens - not foreigners on US property illegally.
Ed

[DWalt]

They are NOT illegal immigrants. They are now officially Newcomers. That came straight from the top.

[Breakaway500]

Arming their armies.And WE are paying for it all, one way or the other. The socialists really don’t care about Constitutions. I was hoping not to see more wars before I pass but that’s out the window. Psychopaths!

[Frailer]

Originally Posted by hdfinder47

I thought the Second Amendment of the US Constitution applied to American citizens - not foreigners on US property illegally.
Ed

There are some rights that are conferred to citizens alone, such as the right to vote or run for federal office, but in general Constitutional rights apply to all.

To quote Jefferson:

“…a bill of rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on earth, general or particular, and what no just government should refuse…”

Edited to add: For the record, none of what I said should be in any way construed as a reflection of my political opinions regarding the current situation with immigration (legal or otherwise) into the US. It is merely my opinion (and that of others who know much more about the law than I) regarding the nature of rights guaranteed (as opposed to granted) by our Bill of Rights.

There are many people I would personally ban from firearms ownership if I were king. But thankfully for all of us I’m not king.

[Oldsalt66]

Hopefully the same consideration will be extended to Americans who happen to live in gun rights restrictive municipalities and states.

[ladder13]

That’s one way to find out their names and country of origin, maybe.

Does the rest of the world do BGC’s?

[ASA335]

I suspect that some judges will take Bruen close to extremes just to force the reversal or at least weakening of Bruen.

Isn't carrying of a firearm while committing a crime historically prohibited?

Isn't being a criminal in possession of a firearm a crime historically prohibited?

Heriberto Carbajal-Flores admits to being here illegally, and may have been found through due process as such, and as such is a criminal.

[ASA335]

But, this judge's reasoning has some merit. A person who is not committing a crime, or has not be found guilty of a crime, or has not been found to be a danger to themselves or other, through a due process, should not be prohibited from possessing or bearing a firearm in any of the states.

[Greyman50]

Constitution and Bill of Rights are for US Citizens. Remember back when they were written people came here to BECOME Citizens and enjoy freedom. These illegal invaders are just part of a soros et- al plan to destroy our country.
Round every one of them up from few days old to 90 and ship them back to Mexico.

[Rustyt1953]

[YeshuaIsa53]

Just remember there is alcohol in the pool below the sliding boards.

Why are people considered legal in the first place? How can their backgrounds be fully checked? Is it not a crime to cross into America without all the proper paperwork and loopholes covered? We seem like we want more loopholes, but we must process people by the law. Would new laws overcome the border crisis?

Most of us want truths about the ongoing affairs of our country. People are people, but I've been walking lines most all my life. Can we afford healthcare? Let's change the subject and give them guns.

[Wrangler Rich]

He is in Illinois, as am I, we are required to have an FOID to legally be in possession of a firearm. Right or wrong, he broke the law coming here, and being in possession of a firearm. I believe the second amendment considered "the people" to be lawful citizens.

WR

[Racer X]

Originally Posted by Frailer

I’ve not read the text of the decision, but IMHO the right to bear arms is a *human* right.

Meaning it applies to everyone.

Legal immigrant with a green card and permanent residency is reasonable.

[RMFnLA]

Originally Posted by Rustyt1953

Pretty ironic considering what’s written at the base of that statue…

[Buzzzer]

Originally Posted by Wrangler Rich

He is in Illinois, as am I, we are required to have an FOID to legally be in possession of a firearm. Right or wrong, he broke the law coming here, and being in possession of a firearm. I believe the second amendment considered "the people" to be lawful citizens.

WR

Exactly, he already broke the law. Therefore, IMHO, he should be in jail, or sent south. He is not a U.S. citizen. Why is this even being talked about? People really think like this nowadays? If you went to Mexico and tried this you'd be in jail forever...

[stansdds]

If illegal entrants into the U.S. are allowed to lawfully possess firearms, thus being granted 2A rights same as a citizen, even though they committed a federal crime by entering illegally, and a felony strips a citizen of their 2A rights, then a dangerous precedent has been set. Such a thing would create a "super citizen" status, one where violating laws goes without prosecution and could also be grounds for granting voting rights as well. I sure hope that this decision is quickly appealed and overturned.

[dockmurgw]

Let me see if I have this right...an illegal has 2A rights, but a person that occasionally partakes in the whacky weed doesn't...have I got that right?

[Fishinfool]

Yea, MS 13 is gunna love this one...

Larry

[mtgianni]

Originally Posted by hdfinder47

I thought the Second Amendment of the US Constitution applied to American citizens - not foreigners on US property illegally.
Ed

Similar to the rest of the Constitution, rights are for all, not just legal residents. We do not require visiting tourists to house our army, nor can they be arrested or charged without Miranda or other legal procedures. Felons can not be gun owners but those charged with and convicted of misdemeanors can. It's a slippery slope to decide whether firearm ownership should be with the most popular of groups or all.

[Racer X]

Originally Posted by hdfinder47

I thought the Second Amendment of the US Constitution applied to American citizens - not foreigners on US property illegally.
Ed

being in the US illegally IS a felony. Just not a violent one, presumably.

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by Fishinfool

Yea, MS 13 is gunna love this one...

Larry

Living the American Dream.

[Frailer]

Originally Posted by Racer X

being in the US illegally IS a felony. Just not a violent one, presumably.

No, it isn’t

[hdfinder47]

Originally Posted by ASA335

But, this judge's reasoning has some merit. A person who is not committing a crime, or has not be found guilty of a crime, or has not been found to be a danger to themselves or other, through a due process, should not be prohibited from possessing or bearing a firearm in any of the states.

They are committing the crime of being here illegally.

[Oldsalt66]

Originally Posted by Racer X

Legal immigrant with a green card and permanent residency is reasonable.

And it is currently legal for permanent resident aliens ( green card holders) to purchase and own firearms.

[hdfinder47]

Originally Posted by mtgianni

Similar to the rest of the Constitution, rights are for all, not just legal residents. We do not require visiting tourists to house our army, nor can they be arrested or charged without Miranda or other legal procedures. Felons can not be gun owners but those charged with and convicted of misdemeanors can. It's a slippery slope to decide whether firearm ownership should be with the most popular of groups or all.

Visiting tourists have come here legally. Illegal immigrants - not so.

[Oldsalt66]

Originally Posted by ASA335

But, this judge's reasoning has some merit. A person who is not committing a crime, or has not be found guilty of a crime, or has not been found to be a danger to themselves or other, through a due process, should not be prohibited from possessing or bearing a firearm in any of the states.

They did not enter this country by means of due process, so no firearms for them.

[Bald1]

This is silly. No FOID card and at some point lied on or didn’t even fill out a 4473. If a relative gave him the gun then they broke the law as well……. In NY you need a semi auto rifle permit for a 10/22. I NYC my carry permit is not valid. But an illegal invader can have a gun? The world is upside down

[Rodan]

Originally Posted by RMFnLA

Pretty ironic considering what’s written at the base of that statue…

[mrcvs]

Here is this judge’s biography:

Sharon Johnson Coleman - Wikipedia

I will not get political here, but look very closely at her photograph, and where she resides, and where she grew up, and who appointed her, and then decide for yourself which way she might lean.

And then you have some folks that lean one way, and wish to give rights to some groups of individuals, and you have some folks, probably the very same folks, who want to strip individuals of their second amendment rights. Then you have folks that lean in the opposite direction.

It is interesting which way this judge sided, it’s the proverbial between a rock and a hard place.

Isn’t the role of a judge to interpret existing Federal law and ensure one’s legal rights are maintained, and not instead to go against Federal law and create that which you want it to be?

This could be a dangerous precedent. In that what’s to preclude a judge from deciding you cannot keep and bear firearms (what they want the law to be) despite the Second Amendment protecting those rights?

[cmj8591]

I really don't think this judge all of a sudden became a stalwart supporter for the 2nd amendment. I'm thinking that this is more about trying to get SCOTUS to go back and make decisions against Bruen. I think there may be more goofy decisions like this in the future. Bruen has the anti gun movement back on it's heels and they are going to try to get SCOTUS to start narrowing their decision. I don't think we should take the bait and let the whole immigration issue start driving the 2nd amendment argument. The result of doing that is that the pro 2nd amendment people will be making arguments that there are certain people who the 2nd doesn't apply to. I don't think it helps our cause to go down that road. Regardless of your opinion about immigration, our default position should be that all law abiding people have the right to own a firearm. All law abiding people. We can't take the immigration bait. That's another argument that shouldn't be tied up with gun ownership.

[edwardyoung]

It’s a pre-existing God-given right.

Maybe laws like this can be used to strike down un-Constitutional restrictions on law-a using American gun owners. I wish I’d gone to law school

[HeyJoe]

The judge is following the standard of scrutiny set in the Bruen decision. The knife cuts both ways. Thomas Jefferson would disagree with those who say the constitution and Bill of Rights only applies to citizens. You are either for strict constitutional interpretation of the text or you are not.

[Frailer]

Originally Posted by cmj8591

I really don't think this judge all of a sudden became a stalwart supporter for the 2nd amendment. I'm thinking that this is more about trying to get SCOTUS to go back and make decisions against Bruen. I think there may be more goofy decisions like this in the future. Bruen has the anti gun movement back on it's heels and they are going to try to get SCOTUS to start narrowing their decision. I don't think we should take the bait and let the whole immigration issue start driving the 2nd amendment argument. The result of doing that is that the pro 2nd amendment people will be making arguments that there are certain people who the 2nd doesn't apply to. I don't think it helps our cause to go down that road. Regardless of your opinion about immigration, our default position should be that all law abiding people have the right to own a firearm. All law abiding people. We can't take the immigration bait. That's another argument that shouldn't be tied up with gun ownership.

I agree. If we allow our stance on the 2nd Amendment to become entangled with any outside issues—or any single political party—we do so at our peril.

Human rights are human rights.

[djohns6]

If anybody thinks this Judge was trying to " be fair " then you're a fool . The decision had nothing to do with the law . There's an ulterior motive and nobody will convince me otherwise .

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by stansdds

If illegal entrants into the U.S. are allowed to lawfully possess firearms, thus being granted 2A rights same as a citizen, even though they committed a federal crime by entering illegally, and a felony strips a citizen of their 2A rights, then a dangerous precedent has been set. Such a thing would create a "super citizen" status, one where violating laws goes without prosecution and could also be grounds for granting voting rights as well. I sure hope that this decision is quickly appealed and overturned.

The end game is in your post.

[gp52555]

So, in ChiCom Joe's America, MS-13 gang members can freely enter the country, buy firearms, squat in your home, and the courts will grant them a restraining order against you if you try to kick them out.......what a country!

[Oldsalt66]

Originally Posted by stansdds

If illegal entrants into the U.S. are allowed to lawfully possess firearms, thus being granted 2A rights same as a citizen, even though they committed a federal crime by entering illegally, and a felony strips a citizen of their 2A rights, then a dangerous precedent has been set. Such a thing would create a "super citizen" status, one where violating laws goes without prosecution and could also be grounds for granting voting rights as well. I sure hope that this decision is quickly appealed and overturned.

There already are such "super citizens" who are impervious to legal and societal norms, and they've been created for the clear purpose of setting society on its heels in order to topple it.

[USBP SW]

Granted, this is a tough call and we don't know the circumstances of how he came into possession of the firearm. As I recall one of the questions on the 4473 asks if the purchaser is an alien illegally in the U.S.. Answering the question in the affirmative is reason to deny the sale. Illegally entering the U.S. is an administrative offense, however, reentry after deport is a felony. Resident aliens can purchase firearms the same as a citizen, a non-immigrant alien can purchase firearms but have some additional requirements, at least here in California. I would be curious to know if the firearm was legally acquired, the individual is certainly deportable. I would give him back the firearm, push him back across the border into Mexico and let him do time in Mexico for possession of a firearm.

[cmj8591]

I really don't see a bunch of MS13'ers lining up to get an LTC or buy a gun at the LGS because of this decision. I think they shop in different places than we do and they don't seem to have any problem getting healed even without this decision.

[vijonesjr]

The illegals will fall as hard as criminal citizens. Or I will die trying to defend myself and my family.

[rays44]

Constitutional rights apply to the citizenry of the republic