For a concealed carry personal defense CS45, what do you folks think of loading it with Corbon 185 grain JHP +P instead of 230 grain RN FMJ factory rounds? Go with the higher speed flying ashtrays, or the standard speed flying gumdrops? Anticipated aggresors would be 2 legged, or possibly 4 legged canine.
.45ACP Carry Ammo: Corbon 185 grain JHP +P vs. 230 grain RN FMJ?
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James NM
Member
My personal preference is to go with the lighter bullet weights with the shorter barrel lengths.
flop-shank
US Veteran
+1, and bullets that may expand are better than those that never will, provideed they're not too light.
LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
Pistol type? Fixed or adjustable sights?
Lighter bullets at significantly higher velocities will frequently shoot quite low (compared to point of aim). Most fixed sight handguns are regulated for "standard" ammunition in the caliber chambered. In .45 ACP that usually means 230-grain bullets.
Before relying upon the 185-grain loads, make a trip to the range. Check point of impact, as compared to point of aim. Also, run two or three magazines full through the pistol (from each magazine you will be using) to make sure that the ammunition will feed, fire, extract, and eject reliably.
The differences between high velocity hollow points and low velocity hardball can be argued forever. But, the bullet that hits the target is the one that ends the fight. Reliability and accuracy are the gold standard; everything else is a crap shoot.
Lighter bullets at significantly higher velocities will frequently shoot quite low (compared to point of aim). Most fixed sight handguns are regulated for "standard" ammunition in the caliber chambered. In .45 ACP that usually means 230-grain bullets.
Before relying upon the 185-grain loads, make a trip to the range. Check point of impact, as compared to point of aim. Also, run two or three magazines full through the pistol (from each magazine you will be using) to make sure that the ammunition will feed, fire, extract, and eject reliably.
The differences between high velocity hollow points and low velocity hardball can be argued forever. But, the bullet that hits the target is the one that ends the fight. Reliability and accuracy are the gold standard; everything else is a crap shoot.
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The real short barrel pistols have issues. You're losing velocity, if you go to lighter bullets to try to get the velocity back, you're losing sectional density/penetration.
Lobo's got an excellent point about the sights. Cor-Bons got a 230 gr JHP load that should provide decent penetraton and might still expand. I expect their 185 gr DPX would do very well, but you're into the POA/POI issue again, plus it's pricy. I wouldn't carry hardball.
Lobo's got an excellent point about the sights. Cor-Bons got a 230 gr JHP load that should provide decent penetraton and might still expand. I expect their 185 gr DPX would do very well, but you're into the POA/POI issue again, plus it's pricy. I wouldn't carry hardball.
Hi:
When I was carrying a M4506 for "On Duty" and a M4516 for "Off Duty"
I used Federal 230gr Hydro-shoc or Winchester Silver-tips.
Jimmy
When I was carrying a M4506 for "On Duty" and a M4516 for "Off Duty"
I used Federal 230gr Hydro-shoc or Winchester Silver-tips.
Jimmy
flop-shank
US Veteran
Penetration may be fine if the bullet is designed right. Example; in .380 gelatin testing, the 90 gr. Speer Gold Dot and Hornady XTP expand, but are engineered so that they only mushroom out to ~ .45", the Remington Golden Sabre gets much bigger, over .6". The Golden Sabre puts on the brakes much harder and is a shallow penetrator (I want to say ~ 9", IIRC), but the Gold Dot and XTP can expand and reach depths of over 12" deep. If such a bullet exists in .45 ACP I don't know, but I would be willing to bet someone has done it. Speer, I'm sure, makes a short barrel .45. That would seem to me a logical place to start one's ammo selection.
A lot can be learned from Doc Roberts over on M4carbine.net
Take a look here...
Thoughts on Service Pistols, along with Duty and Self-Defense Ammo Recommendations - M4Carbine.net Forums
From his testing these loads are my choice in .45 acp chambered guns.
Federal 230 gr HST or 230 gr HST +P
Take a look here...
Thoughts on Service Pistols, along with Duty and Self-Defense Ammo Recommendations - M4Carbine.net Forums
From his testing these loads are my choice in .45 acp chambered guns.
Federal 230 gr HST or 230 gr HST +P
Stu Honea
Member
I prefer 230gr.HST standard pressure even in a four inch barrel.
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Real Sniper
US Veteran
Used to carry Hydra-Shok, but now prefer 230 gr Remington Golden Saber JHP.
JohnK
US Veteran
This is pretty simple.
Hard ball, and round nose lead, are LOUSY stoppers, and transmit little energy into the perp.
You will wound the tree, or bystanders, behind the bad guy.
Expanding/fragmenting bullets work.
I was going to leave the .45/9mm/.40 argument alone, but again, hard ball is lousy for human targets. ALL calibers.
I am not talking about shooting moose, elk, or brown bears, another completely different topic.
Hard ball, and round nose lead, are LOUSY stoppers, and transmit little energy into the perp.
You will wound the tree, or bystanders, behind the bad guy.
Expanding/fragmenting bullets work.
I was going to leave the .45/9mm/.40 argument alone, but again, hard ball is lousy for human targets. ALL calibers.
I am not talking about shooting moose, elk, or brown bears, another completely different topic.
Ky Bob
Member
I agree with John. I personally would go with a 185gr Bullet like the Winchester Ranger- T Series or Federal's HST bullet.
I have two 1911's and from what I have read the 1911 was designed to shoot ball type ammunition. I can't get HP ammo to feed reliably so all I have is ball type ammo which chamber flawlessly. Why are all ball type described as target rounds? A 230 gr projectile traveling at 890 fps and 400 + ft lbs of muzzle energy is NOT enough for self defense? What am I missing? HP's do not consistently expand according to many ballisticians. So, other than for marketing purposes, why the hype? We all know shot placement is key.
reread post #11. FWIW, all my 1911's (and have many) eat any and every JHP reliably. You need to get some work done on yours. The 1911 was designed 100 years ago before there was such a thing as hollow point. Todays 1911s are a different animal in that respect. And its certainly NOT hype when it comes to quality proven JHP ammo. Ball which doesn't expand cannot hold a candle to expanding ammo of today for stopping ability....and yes, shot placement is key when all is said and done - if one is able to guarantee it. A guarantee may not come however.
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Of the two choices you posted, I would find some CorBon DPX 185 JHP loads and use them. The standard 185 JP bullet they use is prone to under penetrate...not so the Barnes all copper bullet used in their DPX load. Otherwise, what LOBO said...
If feeding is an issue in a 1911 Corbon "Pow R Ball" is the load to carry. It's a JHP with a nylon ball on the tip. They look like a Glaser Safety Slug. I also find 230gr Hydrashocks feed 100% due to the rounded profile. I carry the Corbons in my Colt Lightweight Officers ACP backed up with a magazine or 2 of ball. All Wilson Combat mags of course.
amd6547
Member
For all intents and purposes, CorBon magic bullets simply does not exist for me. I just can not afford $1 plus per shot, nor would I be comfortable shooting a couple and then relying on it for carry.
I use Winchester personal protection old school 230gn JHP in both my Glock 30 and Norinco 1911. It feeds perfectly in both, and is accurate.
I would not feel underarmed with a decent 230gn FMJ, though.
Frankly, I am astounded at the prices for some SD ammo. I don't believe the price has anything to do with the cost of r&d or production...just what the market will bear.
I use Winchester personal protection old school 230gn JHP in both my Glock 30 and Norinco 1911. It feeds perfectly in both, and is accurate.
I would not feel underarmed with a decent 230gn FMJ, though.
Frankly, I am astounded at the prices for some SD ammo. I don't believe the price has anything to do with the cost of r&d or production...just what the market will bear.
REM 3200
US Veteran
Solve the problem -- Speer 230 grain Gold Dot short barrel JHP. 
OK Hog Shooter
Member
Just thinkin... if l'm the bad guy.... I'd just as soon not get shot with either round! I guess the reasoning for these rounds, maybe with exception of FTF and FTE, would also hold up for the 25s and 625s? At any rate, good thread with good information and good opinions.
The following is from the link that I posted above. *It is from Doctor Gary K. Roberts. He shares some of his findings/information and answers questions at,
Terminal Ballistic Information - M4Carbine.net Forums
*Per Doc GKR the following loads are in no particular order.
.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)
Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)
-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.
Terminal Ballistic Information - M4Carbine.net Forums
*Per Doc GKR the following loads are in no particular order.
.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)
Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)
-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.
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