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12-01-2009, 03:44 PM
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Federal Hydra-Shock 147gr +P+.38
I ran across a box of Federal Law Enforcement +P+ ammo. Is this stuff safe to use in a late model all steel J - frame or a K - frame. I don't know how much more pressure that these are loaded to in comparison to +P 38 Special ammo?
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12-01-2009, 03:58 PM
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12-01-2009, 04:02 PM
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S&W recommends you not use it in their guns. However, i have used it a lot in my 686. In fact i have around 1600 rounds in ammo boxes currently. It is best to use it in either L-Frame or N-Frame guns. I would not use it in any j_Frame or even a K-Frame.
Carl..
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12-01-2009, 05:11 PM
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While the metal in both a J-frame and K-frame would not be destroyed by these rounds (after all, they do have .357 magnum in both frames), they certainly would be stressed; to what degree is anyone's guess. I certainly can't claim to be an engineer, but I wouldn't recommend using these rounds when there are plenty of +P rounds that have a proven street record and are perfectly acceptable to use such as:
Speer Gold Dot 135 grain JHP+P
Any of the 158 grain LSWHP+P
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12-01-2009, 05:37 PM
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In my Model 36 instruction manual from the 80's, it says +P+ is a no-no in all j frames, and k frames that are not model marked. I take that to mean that it IS okay for K frames that are model marked.
I have a 15-2, and would not hesitate 1 second putting +p+ through it for carry and testing...
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12-01-2009, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob96
I ran across a box of Federal Law Enforcement +P+ ammo. Is this stuff safe to use in a late model all steel J - frame or a K - frame. I don't know how much more pressure that these are loaded to in comparison to +P 38 Special ammo?
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Well Bob, here's the problem: there is no SAAMI standard for +P+, and all it really means is that the manufacturer used his own judgement. So one +P+ may be only a little over +P, and another may be far greater.
In spite of "assumptions and assertions", no S&W .38 revolver has been warranted by S&W for +P+.
The best advice I got on this subject several decades ago was "buy a 686 and shoot whatever .38 and .357 you please."
That would be my advice today.
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12-01-2009, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by safearm
I certainly can't claim to be an engineer, but I wouldn't recommend using these rounds when there are plenty of +P rounds that have a proven street record and are perfectly acceptable to use such as:
Speer Gold Dot 135 grain JHP+P
Any of the 158 grain LSWHP+P
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I agree and would add Corbon's 110 gr. JHP and DPX to the list. Between the three bullet weights something should shoot close to POA. The Corbon 110 gr. +P JHP is ferociously hot and in a recent thread someone mentioned getting velocities in excess of what they got from another maker's 110 gr. +P+ offering.
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12-01-2009, 08:44 PM
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+P+ was loaded for LO with the understanding that firearms makers were not responsible. The understanding is that the guns will not blow up but accellerated wear will definately result.
It's only value is in guns wgich were not offered in 357, so was obsoleted with the advent of J frame 357s. If one were undercover, I guess I'd risk wearing out my chiefs.
On the practice range, I would treat them as mid-range 357s. Use limited amounts in K frames, or use them in N frames.
Russ
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12-01-2009, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKFC05
In spite of "assumptions and assertions", no S&W .38 revolver has been warranted by S&W for +P+.
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Actually, there was. See S&W add below...
The first S&W 640 (J frame) no dash models used by the Treasury Dept. as back up guns were purchased by the agents, at a special rate, under an agreement reached between Treasury and S&W. Treasury furnished the ammo for qualification and carry, which was the round in question by the OP. Later, Treasury purchased the 640-1, and the same ammo was used.
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12-01-2009, 10:33 PM
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This ammo is really not all that hot. Its a 147 grain bullet at a published 950 fps out of a vented barrel. I doubt it hits 900 out of a three inch barrel. I used it for years in a Model 36, and that gun is still nice and tight. The FBI issued it after the 158 LSWCHP, and we shot it in J frames and issued K frames. If it was damaging guns I would have heard about it. We never approved airweights, so I can't speak for them, but I doubt a modest amount would harm even them.
I have shot buckets of this stuff. It was free - I doubt anyone who wasn't issued this pricey ammo could afford enough of it to tell if it was hard on guns.
It sure gets a lot of air time here, though! Somehow this middle of the road loading has achieved near mythical status. Must be that scary +P+ headstamp. Oddly enough, the identical load in a 9mm case won't kill a hamster with a head shot (at least according to what I've learned on the interwebs!)
I wouldn't hesitate to use it in any sound .38 Special.
http://le.atk.com/ballistics/Ammo_Ba...&bulletwgt=147
http://le.atk.com/ballistics/Ammo_Ba...&bulletwgt=147
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Last edited by sigp220.45; 12-02-2009 at 12:32 AM.
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12-02-2009, 04:21 AM
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I LOVE IT! "not enough for a Hamster with a head shot"!
My sentiments exactly. I see the newer LE 147 grain 9X19's as the high capacity FBI load/147 +P+ .38 Special delivery system.
Thanks!
I needed a laugh tonight, and that certainly provided it!
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12-08-2009, 01:28 AM
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back in the day we shot thousands of +P+ "Treasury" loads.....Winchester 110 grn bullets, out of K frame revolvers, and in steel J frames....not sure it is recommended at all, but it was either the "Treasury" load, or the "FBI" load for most of us...
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08-05-2013, 08:44 PM
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20 years Mil, 18 yrs Sac P.D.
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08-06-2013, 04:50 AM
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Armsmaster, do you have a guesstimate of how much of that was put through you M15-3.
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08-06-2013, 10:14 AM
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The +P+ 38 special case ammo was designed for all .357 revolvers when they thought a .357 round was not correct to use on the human body in the early days.
+P ratings did not come until the middle 1970's and were for the newer weapons so marked . Some say the Federal +P load is not a full blown fps load but to me, it is still marked +P and I treat them as a full load and use them in the correct weapons.
+P+ in a J or K frame? Not advised and if you like your weapon just a few +P for practice and carried for SD if you have to..............if you can handle them. Some are a lot better off with "Standard" ammo that they can shoot much better and at least hit a target when needed.
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08-06-2013, 11:08 AM
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My 1990 no-dash 640 is electro-etched inside the frame "Tested For +P+". It's one of the CEN-prefix versions.
I haven't the slightest intention of using +P+ ammo in it, but that's at least as much because I just don't see the need or advantage as it is because S&W recommends not doing it.
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08-28-2013, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exfebee
S&W recommends you not use it in their guns. However, i have used it a lot in my 686. In fact i have around 1600 rounds in ammo boxes currently. It is best to use it in either L-Frame or N-Frame guns. I would not use it in any j_Frame or even a K-Frame.
Carl..
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Would you elaborate please?
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