Has anyone tried the 85 gr jhp in 32 s&w long?

[Cal44]

From georgia arms.

Any expansion tests?

On the lookout for good sd loads for my 2" M31-1.

Been using buffalo bore wad cutters.

[Duckford]

I'd very much like to see more tests done with .32 S&W and .32 S&W Long, however it seems as if these cartridges are considered dead nowadays in terms of self defense with modern .38 Special and the .32 magnums, and it doesn't seem like anyone wishes to take the time to do any tests for lack of interest. Gel tests, with time and effort taken to create and calibrate, and expense for materials, is not an easy or cheap hobby.

In any case, until proven otherwise, I would not consider any hollow point in the .32 S&W. There simply isn't enough energy, enough potential, to have a bullet that will both expand and penetrate deep enough to be considered adequate. The Buffalo Bore wad cutters will certainly at least punch deep enough and have potential to get through bone, while a light weight hollow point in the cartridge could easily fail to penetrate, or might not even expand at all with the low velocities involved. In lower power handguns, non expanding bullets are always the best choice.

[Pisgah]

I loaded them for a Model 31 years ago. Accuracy was good, but not as good as a 90 gr. swaged lead swc, and the lead bullet was noticeably more effective on small game, so my guess would be -- and a guess is all it is -- the jhp didn't expand.

[revolvergeek]

I have handloaded and shot the 85 grain XTP in .32 long at roughly those velocity levels. They will expand, but not into a huge mushroom. More like the nose folds back to make it into a flat faced bugled wadcutter sort of profile. It is the one on the left below, compared to a .380 Ranger SXT and a .38 Spl 135 Gold Dot.

[M E Morrison]

Originally Posted by Duckford

I'd very much like to see more tests done with .32 S&W and .32 S&W Long, however it seems as if these cartridges are considered dead nowadays in terms of self defense with modern .38 Special and the .32 magnums, and it doesn't seem like anyone wishes to take the time to do any tests for lack of interest. Gel tests, with time and effort taken to create and calibrate, and expense for materials, is not an easy or cheap hobby.

In any case, until proven otherwise, I would not consider any hollow point in the .32 S&W. There simply isn't enough energy, enough potential, to have a bullet that will both expand and penetrate deep enough to be considered adequate. The Buffalo Bore wad cutters will certainly at least punch deep enough and have potential to get through bone, while a light weight hollow point in the cartridge could easily fail to penetrate, or might not even expand at all with the low velocities involved. In lower power handguns, non expanding bullets are always the best choice.

I wouldn't expect much expansion from .32 Long velocities; and if it did expand I'd be concerned about inadequate penetration. For my money, I chose the Buffalo Bore 115 gr ammo.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...duct_list&c=14

[Cal44]

Originally Posted by M E Morrison

I wouldn't expect much expansion from .32 Long velocities; and if it did expand I'd be concerned about inadequate penetration. For my money, I chose the Buffalo Bore 115 gr ammo.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...duct_list&c=14

I've wondered which bb load is better.

The theory is the wad cutter would do more wound damage but I wonder if that theory proves out in practice.

The guys at "Pocket guns and gear" tested a 38 target wad cutter and found no special wound damage in a gel test.

But then, most bad guys are not made of jello.

[M E Morrison]

Originally Posted by Cal44

I've wondered which bb load is better.

The theory is the wad cutter would do more wound damage but I wonder if that theory proves out in practice.

The guys at "Pocket guns and gear" tested a 38 target wad cutter and found no special wound damage in a gel test.

But then, most bad guys are not made of jello.

Target velocity is usually pretty low, so I would expect a lot more damage at higher speeds.

[Otreb]

Personally I'd stick with the BB wadcutters. These are low energy rounds from a short barrel, so full caliber penetration are worth much more to me than the prospect of expansion at the expense of penetration.
The .32swl at best could maybe match .380acp ballistics. Much has gone into getting .380 to penetrate and expand with modern jhp designs.....and we're still basically forced to choose either expansion OR penetration.
The XTP bullet would probably have the most promise (like in .380) because it doesn't expand to much larger than Wadcutter profile...but you have wadcutters loaded to higher energy, so....

[Cal44]

Originally Posted by Otreb

Personally I'd stick with the BB wadcutters. These are low energy rounds from a short barrel, so full caliber penetration are worth much more to me than the prospect of expansion at the expense of penetration.
The .32swl at best could maybe match .380acp ballistics. Much has gone into getting .380 to penetrate and expand with modern jhp designs.....and we're still basically forced to choose either expansion OR penetration.
The XTP bullet would probably have the most promise (like in .380) because it doesn't expand to much larger than Wadcutter profile...but you have wadcutters loaded to higher energy, so....

Buffalo Bore includes the following sentence in their writeup on the 100 gr wad cutter 32 long load:

"Depending on how much clothing must be penetrated and how much bone is encountered, expect 17 to 23 inches of straight line penetration in mammalian tissue with this load."

That should be enough to poke a .31" hole through most bad guys.

38 special WC loads can, at best result in a .357" hole, so not that different.

The 115 gr RN flat point has even better penetration according to BB.

Probably not enough market for either load for anyone to do a ballistics gel test.

[M E Morrison]

Originally Posted by Otreb

Personally I'd stick with the BB wadcutters. These are low energy rounds from a short barrel, so full caliber penetration are worth much more to me than the prospect of expansion at the expense of penetration.
The .32swl at best could maybe match .380acp ballistics. Much has gone into getting .380 to penetrate and expand with modern jhp designs.....and we're still basically forced to choose either expansion OR penetration.
The XTP bullet would probably have the most promise (like in .380) because it doesn't expand to much larger than Wadcutter profile...but you have wadcutters loaded to higher energy, so....

And penetration is absolutely requires....

[Otreb]

Originally Posted by Cal44

Buffalo Bore includes the following sentence in their writeup on the 100 gr wad cutter 32 long load:

"Depending on how much clothing must be penetrated and how much bone is encountered, expect 17 to 23 inches of straight line penetration in mammalian tissue with this load."

That should be enough to poke a .31" hole through most bad guys.

38 special WC loads can, at best result in a .357" hole, so not that different.

The 115 gr RN flat point has even better penetration according to BB.

Probably not enough market for either load for anyone to do a ballistics gel test.

Exactly, which is worse....being poked severely by a piece of rebar, or having a car antenna run through you?
Either sucks, but one has more threatening prospects.

[M E Morrison]

Originally Posted by Otreb

Exactly, which is worse....being poked severely by a piece of rebar, or having a car antenna run through you?
Either sucks, but one has more threatening prospects.

True enough, but the difference between .312 and .357 isn't world shaking. Could be important in event of a near miss, so....
Maybe yes, maybe no.

[Duckford]

The very obvious and apparent advantage of increasing caliber size, when comparing non expanding bullets, is a larger hole from the larger bullet. However, the other advantage is shape and resistance, which heavily affect the damage. Since a bullet is not a hypodermic needle and extremely sharp and carefully designed to penetrate with the least amount of resistance and damage, a bullet does not "poke" a hole through as much as it crushes or smashes a hole through something. This is why wadcutters are superior to FMJ any day of the week, save for severely under penetrating bullets or shooting an elephant or rhino. Even without expansion, they create more resistance, and this resistance in the flesh ends up pulling, crushing, and tearing flesh. The sharper the bullet, the less resistance, and thus less damage, with some "sharp" full metal jackets sometimes punching very clean holes in things, sometimes so tidy that blood vessels will somewhat close over the wound.

In line with this, the larger the face of the object, the more resistance and damage it will do. A smaller face means less material in its immediate math to resist, allowing for a cleaner cut and punch through, while the larger face will create more surface area in the path, and thus, more resistance, and more of a crush and smash effect. This is why a .45 FMJ ball does more damage than a 9mm FMJ ball, not only is the bullet face less sharp, thus making it duller, it also is so big it can't help but smash up into a bunch of flesh, creating a lot of resistance that it smashes through, creating more damage and a better wound channel. Not only does the .45 "cut" a wider channel, it smashes a better channel.

The same applies to wadcutters of the same design. The .357 wadcutter will not only smash a bigger hole through a target than the .312 wadcutter, its larger area will create more resistance and thus more damage, a better crush. Yes, a great deal of wanting to switch to a bigger caliber is in power and bullet weight, and thus penetration, but apples to apples, there is a real advantage to the larger caliber, although it may not matter depending on conditions, but than again, it could.

In a perfect shot, it may not matter. In a terrible shot, it may not matter. But in the gray area of hits, organs such as the liver, kidneys, and the many smaller arteries and veins, a better wound channel may affect better bleedout, and a faster bleedout may incapacitate an opponent much quicker, in enough time to make the difference in a fight. Maybe not, maybe so.

So I agree with much that is being said, but there still is a difference. And everything matters, even the little things, in self defense.