I've tested the Critical Defense stuff in several calibers, namely 380, 38, 40 and 45, and while the bullets are light-for-caliber, they do exactly what Hornady says they will do. In wetpack (with a 4-ply denim barrier) and water jugs they hold together, penetrate reasonably well and they expand just the pictures in the ad copy. At halitosis range, they look pretty good!

I use the 150 grain Buffalo Bore wadcutters as my carry load and the Buffalo Bore 158 grain LSWCHP as my reload. YMMV

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I believe in the wadcutter.

Does Remington sell the bullet component for their R38S12 LSWCHP ammunition? I've checked on some sites and can only find Rem HP or REM Wadcutters. There is never a mention of both. I have plenty of UMC/Remington brass and would like to reload this round, if possible.

I read it often on this site, and it's always relevant: standard weight projectiles tend to shoot to point of aim in fixed sighted guns. Guess that wouldn't make much difference at the "halitosis" distance to which papajohn refers, but it's comforting to know a load will also work if that stretches a bit. At least it seems that way to a plain old civilian concealed carrier like me. Consequently, like pj, I like the (yawn) Remington load.

PC

Massad Ayoob does not recommend any reloads for self defense. His reasons refer to your defense if you are charged and go to court for shooting someone. I can't remember what was the jest of his article, but you should research it.

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Who are those guys?

Redleg,
Speer makes a 158 gr. LSWCHP - I've got a box of 500 myself....well, make that about 350 now ;-).

The Speer .38 Special +p 135 gr. has over 1,300 documented LEO shootings and from what I hear the performance is stellar. The only load I that I think is better would be the 110 gr. DPX SCHP. Solid copper HP's flat out work and smoke everything else, no ands, ifs, ors or buts about it. Yes, these rds. may be somewhat expensive but the average civilian needs to shoot a few cylinderfuls (if that) to find the POA and call it a day. You don't need to emulate Mannix and do a reverse half gainer off of a fire escape while simultaneously shooting out the X Ring at 25 yds. The Buffalo Bore 158 gr. regular & +p are good shooters, but every test I've seen they failed MISERABLY in the 4 layer denim/ballistic gel tests. I really think the lead is too hard. They use Rim Rock bullets, FWIW. The Rem. 158 gr. +p SWCHP is better IMO as it is far softer and more apt to mushroom. It's a "soft"shooter as well for those who can't take recoil in a LW snubby.

I only carry a .38 as a backup so this isn't critical for me. However, I load Corbon DPX 110 gr. SCHP's or the Speer 135 gr. +p.

where did you find the 1300 doucumented shooting on the 135GDHP I would like to read a little.

I would also like to have the source of documentation for 1300 revolver shootings involving the 135 +P Gold Dot.

Thanks in advance for your information source.

I read it being bandied about on Stopping Power Forums by some of the LEO's over there. I have no primary source as to the best of my understanding most PD's don't allow that stuff out publicly in today's PC enviornment. Since this has been the issue load to NYPD, Baltimore PD, etc., for nigh onto a decade I can easily see that number as feasible. The NYPD began keeping these records in 1971, a year in which the police in New York City fatally shot 93 people and injured 221 others. In 2010 they killed 8 & injured 16. The shootings are really down there, or maybe the moron anti-gun mayor Bloomberg makes them call his office for the "go ahead" before pulling the trigger!!

Seems as good a reason as any for using 'em.

"Wadcutters are always more accurate, for me, than any other ammo."

I'm not trying to be mean, but there shouldn't be any difference in accuracy between a wadcutter and FMJ, plated, or anything else at a self defense distance. Point of aim may vary on fixed sights guns, but it's not like we're shooting 20 yards for "self defense"...

...Point Of Aim...in a gunfight. Go look at the real gun fights over on YouTube and LiveLeak and let me know when you find one where someone actually even looks like they are using the sights. Get REAL good at point shooting out to 10 yards and your hit probability in a gunfight will go up 200%.

Most people have never chronoed their defensive load to see what it is actually doing from their gun. Rounds that are supposed to be doing in the 900s often barely make 700 from a snubbie. I had friend one friend who shot a guy at about 10' that was trying to shoot him with the 158 +P HPSWC from a Model 60 and the round stuck in the guys neck. Another shot a guy point blank in the face with a 4" and it bounced off his cheekbone... If you read the FBI Shootout report you will find the same thing. One of Mirales' last shots was at about 8' into Matix's head hit just below the left eye and stopped right there...

I have three .38 snubbies that I have also been looking for a reliable factory round for carry. One is an older Model 38 Airweight Bodyguard that is an ex-Michigan SP backup gun with stainless cylinder. Loads have to be kept light in this one. The second is a 60-1 with adjustable sights and the last a 649-1 that has been modified to shoot not only the original .38 Special but also .38 Super and 9mm.

When I was a LEO I also had a ammo manufacturing license. One of the rounds I produced was a snubbie round using an original Hydra-Shok Scorpion WC bullet at 900 fps from a snubbie. It had both violent expansion and because the cone broke off the pointed bullet also penetrated deeply.







This bullet was made by Albert's Bullet Company but unfortunately when Federal bought HS they didn't keep this round in their line...too bad as it's the best snubbie round I ever used...

Bob

When you were loading these bullets can you share your load data?
I have 130 of these Alberts HS bullets left.

PM sent...

Typical wadcutters are barely pushing mid 600fps in snubbies, I've chrono'd them in my 442 and .357 LCR, 620-630fps in both guns avg.
Too slow and too soft, IMO....especially against something with large bones protecting their vital organs.
The Buffalo Bore has a better idea with hardcast and much better velocity, but like others have observed, they will suck in a speedload.



I shot them at the bullseye range not long ago, 25yrds. They both are a little off POA from the smith and Ruger, but they were consistent.



As far as corbon DPX goes, I like the bullet OK, but don't trust the weak sauce ballistics being put up by corbon as of late. I'd pick the 135gr Gold Dot which does right by the chrono and appears to to deliver in actual shootings.

Last time I chronoed the 135 GD HP it was running less than 900 from a 4". From a 2" probably close to 800...

Bob

FWIW, this guy did a ballistics gel test on 135 GD 38+p and said he got an average of 835 FPS from a 2" J frame barrel.

Pretty good expansion for a low velocity bullet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k890Rio2oBY

Ed Harris has an article on wadcutters formSD Ed Harris: Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter | Reloading, Ammunition, Hunting | GrantCunningham.com

I have that same issue with Buffalo Bore 32 S&W long ammo for my 31-1.

My solution is to carry the gun loaded with the BB flat point wad cutters and carry the BB 115 grn round nose flat point as the reload because it's easier to load.

Ed Harris Ed Harris: Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter | Reloading, Ammunition, Hunting | GrantCunningham.com

I too have chronoed the Speer .38spl 135gr+P from a 1.875" barrel. In the hot summer I averaged 858fps at 102 degrees, 842fps at 38 degrees, and 833fps at 12 degrees. Ammo and firearm were left outside for at least an hour to match the environment temps.

There was some internet gel testing by an individual who was claiming that the 642 was effected by cold such that in the winter velocity would drop down to around 770fps causing expansion problems in denim covered gel. My thoughts are that either he got a bad batch of ammo, or his 642 is out of spec....perhaps too much cylinder gap.

Have to find my notes but I believe this split open the carton, and the first jug and found in the second...

I know this is a real old thread, but I'm new to the forum and I recently found several hundred rounds of Zero Unconditionally Guaranteed .38 special 148 gr wadcutters. I think theses bullets could be from the late 70's or early 80's and was wondering if they are still safe to fire. I also have several boxes of 3-D Co. inc .38 special Police Cartridges, Western .38 sp. 158 gr. and winchester .32 Auto 71 gr. F.M.C..
One of the boxes had what appeared to be a date code of 18 20KK82 thats why I gave the date range.
Any info or input would be appreciated.

Thanks
Paul

Nor does he recommend using solid non-HP bullets for SD in service calibers because of the known hazard of such bullets over penetrating an attacker's body.

Paul: it's all very dangerous.

Send it to me.

Seriously, it's just fine. Shoot it.

It's because you could not use loading data as evidence. Say you whipped up some mild handloads for defense because you're injured, you want your wife to be able to defend herself, whatever the reason. Time comes that you have to shoot a guy who is rapidly approaching you. He was 2 feet away when you shot him, but he says he was 15 and posing no threat. Because of your mild handload, the gunshot residue is very light on him, seemingly confirming his version of the distance, and the prosecutor goes after you. You cannot introduce your loading data showing why the GSR was like that, because you literally manufactured the evidence. With factor rounds, the factory's data CAN be used as evidence. Without getting up to go look through the book, I believe that a like scenario happened the the case of Daniel Bias. His wife died by a gunshot. He said she was holding the gun to her head, he grabbed it, they struggled, it went off and killed her. The GSR was very light, because he made mild handloads for her. The prosecutor's argument was that with the GSR being that light, the shot had to come from farther away, and that he murdered his wife, not her killing herself.

In "tales of the stakeout squad", Jim Cirillo mentions that they used to tinker with bullets, and that one of the things they did was put a primer in the cavity of a reversed wadcutter. I wonder if it worked.

The 148 gr HBWC, loaded with the cavity forward, is still an excellent SD round. Fired into a block of firewood it expands to approximately 60 caliber and penetrates more than 4". Haven't tried it in gelatin or anything else. I figure it'll do the job at 850 fps and not be too harsh on my 1927 M&P. I've also found that reloading WC in a hurry is near impossible. I carry a speed loader with Hornady XTPs in 115 gr. Fast loading but at 850 fps it doesn't expand well in wood. Maybe it would be better to try it in another medium. Tried the 148HBWC in water jugs, penetrated 15" of jugs and bounced off block of wood. It only expanded to approximately 45 caliber. I'm new to this testing stuff so I'm not sure what this all means, but I'll stick with the recommendation of an old friend and use this combination.

I can only wish I had as much as that.

I've got the Remington version of that load, and it's what I keep in my snubby. The old FBI Load is a nasty beast of a round. That big old cavernous hollow point wad cutter is hard to beat, and it's been effectively inducing thugs to take dirt naps for decades now.

Also, if you use gonzo super hot, or even mildly hot, home brewed self-defense rounds you can find yourself being portrayed as some sort of whacko vigilante or unstable "gun nut" by either the prosecution or the plaintiff's attorney during the ensuing civil trial. In this case, the other side is going to want your loading data, and you'll find yourself having to explain why you thought you needed to load self-defense ammo beyond the specs used in law enforcement or military issued ammo.

Best bet is to use factory ammo that is currently used, or has been used in the past, by local or federal law enforcement. It's easier to defend than either gonzo home brews or any sort of faddish commercial ammo that goes overboard in its description of its own stopping power. Frinstance, we might know that the Hornady Zomby load is a funny marketing stunt, but it could become a nightmare for you in civil court if you ever had to use it because it allows the other side to paint you as a "gun nut."

If you carry a gun for self defense, the chances of your having to actually shoot someone are on the order of 1 in 10,000. Perhaps 1 in 100,000. Depending on whose statistics you use, guns are used 700,000 to over 2,000,000 times a year for defense WITHOUT FIRING A SHOT.

Carry what you are comfortable with, and quit worrying about esoterica.

As an aside to a very old thread, I've become intrigued by Atomic Ammunition's factory load of a .38 Special +P 148 grain reverse hollow body wadcutter.

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I believe in the wadcutter.

I have some buffalo bore wadcutters and the +P lswchp load en route. I plan on chronoing them through a few guns.

Wadcutters loaded normally are pretty mean. If you turn the bullet around it resembles the Speer Gold Dot with the large cavity but in that configuration would hard cast or swaged be better. I feel that the skirt on the swaged bullet will most definitely expand but it would be a bit soft and flatten out or tear off. A little harder bullet would probably mushroom nicely.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I use the swaged 148 gr HBWC from Hornady in my 4" model 10. I've fired them into water jugs and they blew through 15"s of jugs and bounced off a block of wood. I also fired them into a block of wood and they penetrated 4" and mushroomed to .60 as measured on my digital calipers. There was no tearing of the mushroomed collar. Just my experience with the HBWC, I'm not an expert, but I've been shooting since 1962. Hope this helps some.

Hopefully in the next couple weeks I'll be trying some of the hard cast 150gr Buffalo Bore stuff over the chrono from a few different bbl lengths, probably a 2" Colt Cobra, 2.5" mod 242, 4" mod 64ny1 and a 5 Colt PPS.
I have the +P lswchp's too, though they'll stay in the Smiths only.

I believe those who asked the question "Why wadcutters for self defense" were not thinking about the ubiquotous "Hollow base" target type soft lead 38 Wadcutters!. The purpose of the h.b.swaged wadcutter was due to the fact that bore diameters between Colt,SW,Ruger et al had varying groove diameters from .356-.360". This h.b. Swaged up with burning pressure to fit the lands and grooves properly and were and are,quite accurate. Someone in the early days before common defense type jacket and half-jacket bullets tried to load the hollow based bullet "backwards" with the hollow cavity facing forward and totally incapsulated in the 38 special case so as not to be deformed. When this bullet is fired,even at nominal snub-nose velocities of 700-850 fps,this hollow cavity literally mushrooms to about 45 caliber and more with loads like 5.5 unique or 4.9 bullseye. I have even slit this hollow nasal configuration with a sharp blade and the resultant 4 or 5 petal mushroom is really diastrous. Try it on a watermelon,it really works.

I carry 138 grain wadcutters, reload with 158 grain semi wadcutters.

I have, he presented absolutely no credible evidence. OTH advice from a respected firearms attorney in Virginia is that you are either justified, or you are not justified. Only NJ has ammo laws as far as I know.

Define "works."

I carry 148 gr wadcutters, double-ended hardcast Pennbullets.

.38 Special is a marginal penetrator. A backward hollowbase wadcutter guarantees INADEQUATE PENETRATION. I.e, the HBWC loaded backwards in a .38 Special for self defense is a REALLY.BAD.IDEA.

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I've still got it made.

How 'bout because they don't kick much and they cut clean-edged, open holes that will bleed a lot ?

Larry

c/o post 49;

So you start out with a 158gr Lhp.........

and end up with a 148 BBwc.

That will work.

A sharp shouldered semi wadcutter will cut the same caliber hole as a wadcutter and comes in better loads with more velocity.
Using a 750 fps wadcutter for self defense? More accurate?
If you can't handle in 38 spl with self defense loads, you need to go to a smaller caliber that you can control. Heavy clothing will slow down a wadcutter drastically.

I'm a retired LEO and FBI trained and certified firearms instructor. Nothing wrong with wadcutters for carry. Like the others said, they cut a clean hole through vitals and bones. I would want them pumped up a little more in the FPS department. Say around 900/1000. That would make them more lethal and be able to penetrate barriers. I think Buffalo Bore may have that covered. A lead semi wadcutter is another great option that has proven itself for a long time. As said before, accuracy rules. So use what you can hit with.

1990 before ThanksGiving was moving my ladder stand to another spot..

0ut steps a doe pawing the ground. Just 15yds in front of me on the trail.

0nly gun l had was my Mod 36 Chiefs Special loaded w/wad cutters.

Doe Day too.. So l took a shot. First shot broke her back. Second in the ear.

Tipping the scales @90 lbs, she ate GREAT. A true ThanksGiving feast..

Wad cutters W O R K

I've reevaluated the order of what I carry, I've always carried Federal jhp Hydro shock in my 45s, but know carry one Federal jhp in the pipe, then 2, 230gr hardball for garment penetration and then the rest Federal jhp.

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Dave Ramsey Cultist