Did a very small informal velocity test of Rem. 38spl+p 125gr. golden saber. One thing that I was impressed with was accuracy.(at least for me) All 4 guns produced 5 shot groups of 1.5in. or less at 10yds. off hand, double action. I know this is a very small test but I found the results interesting. Anyone else had similar results.

Chronograph at 10ft. from muzzle
Temp. 28deg. F

Mod. 642, 1.875" 38spl.
5 shot avg. 890fps
(Rem. 38spl+p 158gr. lswchp 805fps)

Mod. 65, 3" 357mag
5 shot avg. 800fps

Mod. 64, 3" 38spl
5 shot avg. 895fps

Mod. 60 Pro 3" 357mag.
5 shot avg. 906fps

(The Rem. 158gr. was only fired in the 642, 5 shots) all the other info is for the 125gr GS's.

Didn't check B C gaps or throat diameters. Maybe I can get around to that when the weather warms up. I suspect one or both may have produced the differences, just a little suprised that they varried that much, also wonder about the (2) 357's being the extremes. Maybe it just continues to show that every firearm is indeed a unique and individual tool. And the only way to know for sure what any load out of any firearm is actually doing is to check them. (if it really matters)

fman514 :

I did some Chronograph testing (posted on this Forum) about 8 months ago myself. I tested most of the 38 Spl. +P and standard velocity offerings from Winchester, Remington and Federal and shot them out of my M60 2" bbl. Chief Special. I tested the Speer Gold Dot +P 135 Gr. and Buffalo Bore 158 Grain LSWCHP +P and non +P offerings as well. In a nut shell here is what I found:

From my 2" M60 Chief's Special the NON +P 158 gr. lead SWC from Win. Rem. & Fed. were in the high 600's to low 700's, the +P's were in the high 700's to low 800's. The Speer Gold Dot JHP was up about 880 fps and the 158 gr. Buffalo Bore +P was 1,040! Even the NON +P 158 gr. Buffalo Bore was about 850 or so.

I put a few cylinders full of the BB +P's through my gun to test for accuracy (which was dead nuts on) and my ability to handle the recoil which I found stiff but predictable and manageable.

I'll give you one guess what ammo is in my M60 and in my spare ammo pouches now. To me, 1,040 feet per second out of a 2" snub nose revolver with a 158 grain bullet is nothing short of amazing! That is approaching low end 357 magnum velocities out of that type of gun. It also relates to about 379 foot pounds of energy which blows away the competition. You should order some, chronograph it yourself, and see what you think.

I do not have ANY affiliation with Buffalo Bore Ammunition what so ever, but the owner and developer (Tim Sundles) has done one hell of a job in making the 2" snub nose J-Frame revolver a much more potent player in the self defense game.

Regards,
chief38

I saw an article in Gun Tests re: Buffalo Bore +P 158. While I don't have the equipment to test it, I did fire it at my local range from my 638. Very snappy but controlable. It is now my carry load and you're right, @ + 1000 fps that is approaching .357 territory.

Thanks for the replies and info. I guess I'm just getting to old fashion and stubborn, I don't do the online purchasing thing and don't like to mail order anything if I can keep from it, (guess i just need to keep up with the times) I just like to be able to go to a local store and buy what I need, the only factory ammo I ever fire is in my carry guns and the Rem. G S load seeems to be the only one I can find on a regular basis. I used to buy the Rem. 158gr lswchp but it's just gotten almost impossible to find in my area. Just had some time on my hands and decided to check these out.

I hear ya.........

up until 2 years ago I felt pretty much the same way, you know keep the local economy going. Unfortunately, if you want a specific item now, sometimes you are just forced to get it on the internet because local stores just don't carry it.

I have to say that I was so impressed by Buffalo Bore's performance, I would say it is worth the hassle (which is not really a big one) to order it from Cabela's or Midway. You can even place an order over the phone if you are computer shy. Really good stuff!

Not that i never order anything over the web, and I do buy some from Cabela's and midway, just don't like to. But you have about convinced me to try the Buffalo Bore, you seem to be among a growing group of proponents, Thanks again for the info.

I have been using Buffalo Bore® 158gr LSWCHP 38 Special ammunition for the last three years; both standard pressure and +P. IMHO, it is THE BEST self defense ammunition in 38 Special available. I use the standard pressure load in my Airweight® 38 and the +P stuff in my steel J & K frames. It is amazingly accurate and POA/POI is the same in all three of my snub nosed guns.

__________________
David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

I would like to see this stuff pressure tested by an independent source before I'd trust it in an older J-frame. The laws of physics are always in effect. Did they invent a secret new powder or are they just actually pushing towards magnum pressures? I'd be careful.

__________________
Loyalty Above All.. but Honor

I have to agree with Badge 130. I need much more information from an independent source. I look at data from any ammo maker as being a little questionable. It has to be proven in the "field" or some independent lab.

__________________
CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

Why use a round that has core/jacket separation. Too many good bonded bullets these days.

While I certainly do not have he proper equipment to test pressures, I will state one thing as a businessman: If Tim Sundles (owner of BB) was not truthful in his statement that ALL his ammunition is loaded to SAMMI Spec's and there were failures and injuries, he would have been sued out of business by now. BB is not a new Company, and they have been selling their product all over the place for many years now. I know too many people that use BB ammo and have never heard a bad word about it. That has to be a pretty good report card!

I spoke to Tim of BB a year or so ago and asked him why he can do this with his ammo and the BIG 3 can't. He replied and said it's not that they can't, it's that they won't! Product liability is all the rage these days. They are concerned about someone putting a HOT modern load in a 100 year old revolver or pistol. Because his is a smaller Company, he can keep better track of quality and production issues, and has a more savvy user base. BB will (obviously) not reveal his "recipe" of powders he uses, but he seems to have really come up with a winner line-up of ammo!!

I have used and tested 5 different loads from BB Ammo and have NEVER had any issues what so ever. After Chronographing his ammo up against standard Factory offerings, I simply can not go back to using sub standard ammunition.

The other thing I have noticed while testing his ammo is that BB has just about the most consistent velocities I have EVER seen. When doing Chronograph testing of Factory ammo, there is usually a 40 - 50 fps variation from high to low. The BB ammo was between 5 - 20 fps. As a reloader myself, I find that figure to be absolutely amazing!

I am a true believer and his products work for me!!!


chief38

Question, are all 9mm, say 124gr +P rounds the same? In other words, when something is loaded to SAMMI specs is the final pressure the slug 'sees' the same, (I kinda know it's not, just wondering how all this works). I realize that each manufacturer has their own mix for the actual powder, and they all seem to have different claims for velocity, etc. How does say CorBon, BB seem to have higher velocity than say, Speer, Federal, or am I off in this line of thinking and need to research more, (which this falls under the heading of)

While I am certainly not a ballistics expert, one of my hobbies has been to test the velocity and figure out the foot pounds of energy (mathematically) for various common "carry loads". Each gun powder has a different burn rate, and each powder burns at different temperatures. The cartridge crimp style and of course the bullet itself can and does all play into the final velocity of the bullet exiting a barrel.

From what I understand, the point is to expend as close to 100% of the powders energy INSIDE the guns barrel as possible. Any powder burnt outside of the barrel is just flash and contributes nothing to a bullets velocity. The powders we buy (as reloaders) are tried and true canned formulas that work fairly consistent, but is obviously not optimal for a specific type of gun, bullet or barrel length. What Buffalo Bore does is optimize his loadings for specific situations. He manufactures loads for short barreled J-Frames, Pocket (.380) pistols, etc, and most or all of his products are geared to either self defense or hunting, which in turn relates to a maximum performance of that load. I have been told by some that he custom blends different powders to achieve the performance he gets, but that is just hear-say. I really do not have personal knowledge on how he gets the performance that he does, but I can and do attest that his advertised data is 100% accurate - because I have verified it! (velocities and energy - I am not capable of testing SAMMI pressure)

Just remember another fact........
You know how they say if you put a frog in a pot of water and raise the temperature only 1 degree every day he will never realize he is "boiling". Well that's about what the ammo companies and reloading manuals have done to us. Every year (with rare exception) they are more and more worried about product liability, and therefore keep reducing their loads and reloading data. Look at the data for let's say a 357 Magnum. Years ago, the same 357 load was about 10 - 15 percent hotter than today's loadings are.The industry standards for 38 spl. +P has dropped 8%. So when we finally do find an honestly loaded round, it seems too powerful!

I can go on and on, but the bottom line is that Buffalo Bore products have done exactly what they say they will do, have been around for many years now, and are used by thousands and thousands of shooters, hunters, and people in harms way without any problems ( at least I have not heard of any). I do and will continue to bet my life on their product because I think that their product is the best I can get at the present time, with no exception. Hey, that's my .02 cents for what it is worth.

regards,
chief38

I like to read the posts about the different ammo available for PD, and particularly I am interested in the Buffalo Bore Ammo. But I have one newbie type question: Can you shoot that Buffalo Bore +P hot-stuff ammo out of a K-frame model 10 built in the mid 70's?

Getting back to the OP's original question, I have found the 125 +P Golden Saber the most accurate round out of my Ruger LCR. I've tried about 6 different rounds, including the Speer 135 +P short barrel GDHP and the Golden Saber works best for me. It also runs well through my Security Six, as does the 125 gr. .357 mag GS. Golden Saber is good stuff!

Chief, good info, by any chance have you tested Speer short barrel? I was starting to look into that when I learned of BB, looked into the site, see they also make a short barrel ammo. This would fit my wife's 'J' frame and my PF9. Thanks again for the info.

Jamie:

I did test the Speer 135 grain Gold Dot 38 Spl. +P ( for snubby's ) load in my 2" M60. It performed quite well, second to the Buffalo Bore. I Chronographed ( 20 round's tested ) an average of 880 feet per second, and it was also quite consistent. In fact, if Buffalo Bore ammo did not exist, that would be my go-to defense load. The only thing I dislike about the Gold Dot 135 gr. is that it's NOT a 158 grain bullet. Small barrel guns like the Chief's Special and the Colt Dick Special were designed and sighted in for 158 grain bullets, and lighter bullets will usually not shoot to POA. In this case though, it is unlikely you will ever use a short barreled revolver in a defense situation from more than 10 feet, so POA / POI will not vary that much. Oh, by the way the Gold Dot had only slightly less recoil than the Buffalo Bore, so it would not be much of an edge.

regards,
chief38

imakmst:

Since I did not make the revolver, I will give you the answer that S&W gives to their customers..................

If the gun has a Model number stamped in the yoke area when the cylinder is opened, then yes you can shoot +P ammo from time to time. (ex: 10-5)

Buffalo Bore states the following:

BB ammo that is +P rated will function fine in any modern revolver that is rated for such, as their pressures do not exceed SAMMI specs. for that cartridge.

Hope that helps......

chief38

Chief, very cool, and to add to this a bit, I just went into both Speer's site and BB. The Speer short barrel, which is a +P is listed @ 900 fps, your measured 880 fps! Both the Speer and BB standard pressure short barrel, 158gr came up real close in terms of velocity and energy, (foot pounds). This brings me back to the question of two bullets of a given weight, both rated +P the same? I think we would agree they're not, but if they are both SAMMI certified, what gives? Does one company choose to load slightly weaker, or does one load a bit heavy, in other words, are some bullets more 'equal' than others? Just wondering.

Jamie:

It is hard to explain this because I am not a Physicist, but I will try my best. I think I understand what you are asking about maximum pressures (peak) being equal in 2 different cartridges and so why does the velocity and energy vary. There are a few factors. When two different cartridges are fired they may indeed have the same initial pressure, but one may loose its pressure faster than the other. In other words, one might have a split second of the maximum pressure, while the other may have more consistent maximum pressure. The other factor is that one powder may create maximum pressure faster than the other. If a cartridge reaches maximum pressure just as the bullet is leaving the barrel, then it is not going to have a great affect, while the other one may develop maximum pressure and sustain it in 90% of the barrel.

There are many different factors when dealing with Ballistics, and like I said, this is just a hobby for me, I make no claim to be an expert on this. All I can state is what I actually test and chronograph myself. I have a mathematical formula that will enable you to figure out the foot pounds of energy of any bullet as long as you know the velocity and the grain weight of the bullet. If you are interested I will try to scan it and post it, but I will have to wait for my Son to come home as I do not know how to use the scanner in this computer. Let me know if you are interested, and if so I will try the scan.

chief38

LOL, I have used my scanner once or twice, (after several attempts), I feel your pain. Yes, absolutely I would be interested in the formula. I appreciate that you are not an 'expert', this way even I can understand, thanks again.

Jamie:

here is the formula. Hope you are good at math - actually it's not that difficult, just a little bit of algebra.
IF YOU CLICK ON THE FORMULA A FEW TIMES YOU CAN ENLARGE IT.
chief38

Attached Images

scan0001.jpg (30.5 KB, 101 views)

Jamie:

The formula is correct, but the results in step 3 are in JOULES, not Newtons as I have typed. Not a big deal, but there are some picky guys here and I want to make sure the terms are correct.

chief38

With a caveat. Buffalo also states:

"There is such a variety of 40 S&W pistols in public use that we will not determine what pistols are compatible with which 40 S&W +P loads - this is your responsibility! We will add that this ammo is safe in pistols that use a fully supported chamber."

By the way, they also warn against using their 45 in a Taurus Judge.

My question exactly. I don't worship at the alter of hyper velocity, but I am curious. My guess would be a powder optimized for a particular barrel length and use the max safe charge before returns diminish. Or unsafe. All the manufacturers include the disclaimer that your gun better be in good shape...

Personally, I'd rather have 7 milder rounds COM than a couple of Big Boomers in the floor...

I agree, seeing the velocity claims from Buffalo Bore made my eyes open, (there are plenty on these forums who back up the velocity claims). What really made my eyes water was when I went on Double Taps site, DAMN!

What will REALLY make your eyes water is if and when you actually Chrongraph the BB loads against the Big Three loads PERSONALLY out of YOUR gun and see what a huge difference there really is. The recoil is not all that different and is very controllable.

I was a bit skeptical at first, but when I did the actual testing myself (as opposed to reading it on a forum or in a magazine) I was just blown away. You will never go back to the Big Three stuff for self defense!!

chief38

Buffalo Bore® is simply the best IMHO.

__________________
David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

speed doesn't mean much if they don't open:

Buffalo Bore 158gr (non +P) SWC-HC

__________________
Loyalty Above All.. but Honor

Hard to argue with that, but then I haven't personally tried 'em out. Might have to look into getting a chronograph, what a GREAT excuse to go to the range!
(Can't wait to see where this thread goes now )

Badge130:

I just want to point out that the data you posted from Brassfetcher was for BB's NON +P loading, NOT the +P data we were discussing.

Yes, bullet expansion is important, but IMHO it takes a back seat to penetration. Expansion is not much good if a bullet does not reach vital organs. A shallow expanded bullet may tear and destroy tissue, but more than likely, won't put a bad guy down instantly like a vital organ hit.

The other interesting theory here (regarding the NON +P BB loading) is that if the bullets did fragment into 3 different pieces after penetrating 14 inches, is that necessarily a "bad thing"? Seems to me that it would actually inflict more damage to the body internals than a single projectile.

Chief38