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  #51  
Old 03-10-2012, 12:30 PM
McJoe McJoe is offline
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What has happened to the .357 Magnum? What has happened to the .357 Magnum? What has happened to the .357 Magnum? What has happened to the .357 Magnum? What has happened to the .357 Magnum?  
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Default u missed the point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdouthet View Post
Oh where to start
You really think that Hard Cast bullets have zinc in them?
Brass is an alloy of the mixture of copper and zinc and the Copper jackets on handgun bullets is all so an alloy the mixture of copper and zinc.
You talk about takedown power
.357 158gr. LSWC round @1500fps (is most likely going to be a hard cast)

vs. say Remington 158 jsp @1200
And the hard cast LSWC GC 158gr is going to kick the 158gr JSP's rear end on true takedown, kill power and penetration.

I have played with a few types and brands.
The Golden Saber 125gr HP does great for a 38spl, but for a 357mag they are junk 75% of the time the jacket comes right off on pond impact. You shoot one with a 125gr bullet and he will eat you for dinner.

If you wish me to go on I will and you will not like it.

Do as you must, but you missed the point I was trying to make.

First, thanks your pointing out a typo... I meant to say TIN in place of zinc for hard cast bullets.

Second, true brass jackets have much more zinc than 'copper' rounds, making them harder. Yes, I am fully aware of this.

Third, the only person I was arguing with was the dude who said GS are garbage. Must have been you...

A jsp at the same weight and velocity WILL have more kockdown power than a HARD CAST wadcutter. It will transfer more energy to the target when it expands. HC rounds are non expanding, kinda like fmj's. Penetration and non-expansion is their trademark. Original .357 rounds were lead. Unjacketed SOFT LEAD performs MUCH differently at magnum velocities than do jacketed bullets. I agree that a LEAD (not hard cast) wadcutter will have more knockdown than a jacketed round at the same velocity. It will also have less penetration, due to deformation, hence the need (initially) for higher velocities.

You keep changing your focus to hard cast... hard cast is for penetration. Knockdown on a HC isnt much more than an fmj at the same weight/velocity. This is an non-expanding projectile that is designed to penetrate with minimal deformation. In fact in my opinion the only reason to use HC over FMJ is because they can be made at home and at much less expense than a jacketed round. The only time you will get 'knockdown' ability from a hc is if you hit the shoulderblade, heart, or CNS. So yeah, youre wrong there, a HC will pass through where a sp/hp will transfer more nrgy to the target, while penetrating less. This is well known stuff bud. And physics are pysics, unless youre God, or an alien.

Please stop shooting your pond... its dangerous.

Did you know you can buy BONDED golden sabers? Problem solved... the bonded ones were all ive ever used so I assumed thats all that was made anymore.

I also didnt imply that a 125 gs factory round would be adequate for protection from black bears. I said a 125 grain brass jacketed projectile flying at nearly twice the speed of sound will MOST LIKELY have excellent expansion and penetration characteristics on something the size and density of a black bear for HUNTING purposes. It might also explode and not even make it through the fat and skin. I didnt tell anyone to go out and do it. I didnt say I planned to do it. I said I still have more testing to do before I even consider it. And obviously, my load for this purpose will use the bonded projectile.

The point of this thread can be found in the title... I am simply trying to give everyone MY perspective that while velocities for common 357 rounds have decreased, this is, in my experience, due to advancements in projectile technology. You simply do not need to push a jacketed bullet as hard as a non jacketed round to achieve adequate penetration. To push a 158 jacketed round as fast as the original 158 LWC is asking for overpenetration and wasted energy, both terminally, and in recoil and flash/blast.

So yea, you can say whatever you want. Youve already proven you have a hard time comprehending what you read, and I know my physics.

Last edited by McJoe; 03-10-2012 at 02:49 PM. Reason: clarify
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  #52  
Old 03-10-2012, 01:49 PM
dogdoc dogdoc is offline
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Agree 100 percent. I do not see how anyone who shoots alot would not be a handloader. The money saving alone is worth it.
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Originally Posted by Skip Sackett View Post
I usually don't even come to this section of the forum.

As for the 357Mag being weenie-ized, no, it hasn't been, to my knowledge. 'Course, my knowledge is solely based on the ammo that is turned out on my equipment in my basement with bullets cast in my garage, um, for the most part.

I shoot some jacketed stuff, mostly in rifle loads though.

To put things in perspective though, I have a 357Mag load that leaves a Marlin 1894 at over 2000fps, it uses a Hornady 158gr XTP and a healthy heapin' helpin of Lil' Gun powder. In past experiences with this rifle and the corresponding handgun, a M586 with a 6" barrel, there is usually a 300fps difference in velocity between the two. That being said, I do not shoot Lil' Gun through revolvers because of the issue that Freedom Arms has explored when others have done so.

All of this may seem to be apples and oranges to you folks here BUT, the point I am trying to make is this: "Stop being controlled by others. You are quite capable of having the exact ammo you want, when you want it, in the quantities you want, for the price you want that has been developed by you in your firearms. The system to provide such is called RELOADING! Start today!"

All of that being said, there is no zinc in cast bullets. If you put one ppm in your melt, you will have ruined its ability to fill the mould out and it is of no use to you at that point. Other metals are added to such alloys, antimony, Tin, Linotype, Monotype along with others, to make bullets harder.

FWIW
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  #53  
Old 03-11-2012, 04:19 PM
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Ideally, you want 100% of the energy transferred on impact. If the bullet passes clean through then that didn't happen.

As APS noted someone shot a deer and the bullet stopped at the skin on the other side of the entrance. That's what you want.

I load most of my own .357 mags because they have gotten too expensive and I try to pump 50 week through my old mod 28.
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  #54  
Old 03-31-2012, 11:31 PM
Bdouthet Bdouthet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McJoe View Post
Do as you must, but you missed the point I was trying to make.

First, thanks your pointing out a typo... I meant to say TIN in place of zinc for hard cast bullets.

Second, true brass jackets have much more zinc than 'copper' rounds, making them harder. Yes, I am fully aware of this.

Third, the only person I was arguing with was the dude who said GS are garbage. Must have been you...

A jsp at the same weight and velocity WILL have more kockdown power than a HARD CAST wadcutter. It will transfer more energy to the target when it expands. HC rounds are non expanding, kinda like fmj's. Penetration and non-expansion is their trademark. Original .357 rounds were lead. Unjacketed SOFT LEAD performs MUCH differently at magnum velocities than do jacketed bullets. I agree that a LEAD (not hard cast) wadcutter will have more knockdown than a jacketed round at the same velocity. It will also have less penetration, due to deformation, hence the need (initially) for higher velocities.

You keep changing your focus to hard cast... hard cast is for penetration. Knockdown on a HC isnt much more than an fmj at the same weight/velocity. This is an non-expanding projectile that is designed to penetrate with minimal deformation. In fact in my opinion the only reason to use HC over FMJ is because they can be made at home and at much less expense than a jacketed round. The only time you will get 'knockdown' ability from a hc is if you hit the shoulderblade, heart, or CNS. So yeah, youre wrong there, a HC will pass through where a sp/hp will transfer more nrgy to the target, while penetrating less. This is well known stuff bud. And physics are pysics, unless youre God, or an alien.

Please stop shooting your pond... its dangerous.

Did you know you can buy BONDED golden sabers? Problem solved... the bonded ones were all ive ever used so I assumed thats all that was made anymore.

I also didnt imply that a 125 gs factory round would be adequate for protection from black bears. I said a 125 grain brass jacketed projectile flying at nearly twice the speed of sound will MOST LIKELY have excellent expansion and penetration characteristics on something the size and density of a black bear for HUNTING purposes. It might also explode and not even make it through the fat and skin. I didnt tell anyone to go out and do it. I didnt say I planned to do it. I said I still have more testing to do before I even consider it. And obviously, my load for this purpose will use the bonded projectile.

The point of this thread can be found in the title... I am simply trying to give everyone MY perspective that while velocities for common 357 rounds have decreased, this is, in my experience, due to advancements in projectile technology. You simply do not need to push a jacketed bullet as hard as a non jacketed round to achieve adequate penetration. To push a 158 jacketed round as fast as the original 158 LWC is asking for overpenetration and wasted energy, both terminally, and in recoil and flash/blast.

So yea, you can say whatever you want. Youve already proven you have a hard time comprehending what you read, and I know my physics.
Quote"Second, true brass jackets have much more zinc than 'copper' rounds, making them harder. Yes, I am fully aware of this."

where do you get this from? you can not know if its harder unless you know what the alloy of brass or copper is used.
some copper alloys are harder then brass alloy. What alloys are you talking about?

Clearly you know very little about Lead alloys and the Original .357 mag that used a cast lead alloy bullet.

Your perspective lacks common knowledge. Come back with more knowledge.

later
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  #55  
Old 04-01-2012, 06:43 AM
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The original "manstopper" .357 was the Rem. 125 gr. HP (non Golden Saber) that they still make as well as the legendary Fed. 125 gr. Magnum. I shoot & carry the Federals once in a while in a Model 13-3 HB and they are a handful. Deadly accurate and they smoke right along!!

A lot of testing in the old days was not "honest" in that they used 6" or greater test barrels and not real world guns to get their advertised velocities as after all it was & is advertising.

The .357 Mag. with 125 gr. HP's is still a winner for self defense but few are the people who can shoot one accurately & quickly under range conditions let alone under stress.
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  #56  
Old 04-01-2012, 08:26 AM
scooter123 scooter123 is offline
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IMO some of us have a tendancy to view the past through rose tinted lenses.

Now, if you take off those rose tinted lenses and look around, today you'll find that there are some VERY stout 357 Magnum loadings available from some smaller manufacturers. Buffalo Bore and Double Tap both have a reputation for building loads that push the limits of what can be done. I just looked at Double Tap and they list a 158 gn. JHP listed at 1245 fps out of a 1 7/8 inch S&W, 1400 fps out of a 4 inch Ruger GP-100, and 1540 fps out of a 6 inch 686. In addition to these Defense loads they also offer a variety of other loads that will raise your eyebrows. I expect that if I were to look at Buffalo Bore I would find similar results. That being 357 Magnums that produce numbers that are historical for the 357 Magnum.

PS; personally IMO the 357 Magnum is too much of a good thing and NOT a good choice for Defense. It's too loud, the section energy density is too high, and the recoil doesn't permit rapid followups in anything lighter than about 45 ounces. That means when loaded near maximum levels it'll leave you deafened, the bullet will just blow through your opponent, and you'll be standing there with your ears ringing and hand stinging with the gun off target when you should be firing a second shot. For these reasons I don't find it the least bit surprizing that many commercial SD loads are reduced recoil variants that actually allow a more effective defense. To be blunt, More Power isn't always the best answer, the best answer is to choose the most effective power available that works for YOU.
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  #57  
Old 04-01-2012, 08:55 AM
Peter M. Eick Peter M. Eick is offline
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I understand you point, and that is why the 38 special still exists. It is not as loud, it is not too much of a good thing as you state. It will not leave you as stunned as a 357 mag will do in a close battle.

So let me flip this back your way. Why wimp out the 357 magnum and bring it down to 38/44 power levels when what you really should do is keep the old power levels and just sell different ammo to the customer?

This is what I see has happened. Every 357/38 revolver round has dropped one power level in the last 40 years. Basically since the 357 Maximum came out, they all dropped one level. I have chrono-ed old ammo and modern ammo. It is fascinating to see that modern 357 Magnum ammo is about the same velocities at 38/44 ammo from the early 50's.

In my mind and my chrono tells me that regardless of the propaganda, modern 357 magnum is about equal to 38/44. Modern 38+P is about equal to old 38 special. Modern 38 special is about equal to old 38 long colt or 38 S&W depending on your take.

I have loaded up to full 1930's power level 357 magnum in my 8 3/8" pre-27's. It is impressive what the big guns can do with decent ammo. Put that same load in a 6.5" Registered magnum and it is also impressive. Big boom, lots of recoil but the cases just fall out of the cylinder. Would I want to shoot a lot of those in a K frame lightweight gun? No.

Buffalo bore and a few others have basically made a business out of providing folks what they used to get from the big boys like Fed/Win/Rem.

Some will argue many points as to why. Different technologies for measurement, liability, weak guns, light guns etc., but at the end of the day the results are the same.
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  #58  
Old 04-01-2012, 10:51 AM
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For those that want blazing velocity from their 357 magnums, yet don't want to risk an overload of powder, there is a simple solution. Get a lever action carbine, 16-20 in barrel. I have two a Rossi Mdl 92 and a Marlin Mdl 1894, both chambered for 357 mag. Both carbines are light handy and for any given load will give you 300-350 fps more velocity that you will get from a pistol. Also both are more accurate to shoot beyond 25 yards or so than a pistol. They each hold more rounds in the magazine than a pistol.
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Old 04-01-2012, 01:16 PM
scooter123 scooter123 is offline
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Peter, IMO the reason why you've seen a drop in performance in the 357 Magnum from the Major brands is due to simple Economy of Scale. Their production line and business model is set up so that they only make a profit when they produce LARGE volumes of a particular loading. This means that they have to SELL large volumes of a particular load and with the 357 Magnum now being used mainly for Defense in smaller and lighter revolvers that means that it's the reduced recoil loads that sell in volume. Now, there is a bit of good news in this, that is that niche suppliers such as Buffalo Bore and Double Tap can use a business model that would be a disaster for the major brands and also supply a small niche with the ammo they need.
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  #60  
Old 12-11-2012, 07:32 PM
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Default Since more people have chronometers and info is more available....

... I think the ammo manufacturers aren't as prone to exaggerate velocity as they used to be besides making ammunition that is safe for any old clunker out there in order to cover their own butts. I find that most of the hype and wild claims now are aimed toward terminal ballistics of the bullet. Something like "This bullet will drop your target first hit and will chew a tremendous wound channel through the main guts." Bullets are being made more scientifically and generally better but companies still tend to try to outdo each other. However, even now there is a lot of info on the web about terminal ballistics tests of factory bullets. If you want the best, you will most likely get it by hand loading your own. I only have three needs. Target, plinking and defense. I like being able to shoot flatter at 100yds but in a defense situation if I need to shoot beyond point blank range, I don't need to shoot at all unless they have me "pinned down behind the rocks" like they do in cowboy movies. I have hot .38 special +Ps for home defense because I don't want a .357 to blast my ears out. Also, I like shooting a lot more than I do cleaning lead out of my barrel so for me shooting lead at magnum velocities is out.

Last edited by rwsmith; 12-11-2012 at 07:34 PM. Reason: be more concise and less wordy.
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  #61  
Old 12-14-2012, 02:21 PM
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Being new to reloading and handguns back in the early 70's I tested many different bullet weights and loads. In my colt python in 357mag with its 6" barrel the most accurate load was the 140gr JHP speer bullets with 2400 gun powder. I could make pinpoint shots at the rocks on the berm at 100yds at will. This handgun was always shooting high at 25yds so i took it out to 100yds were it was deadly on. Today i still have some loads left over with the 140gr JHP's.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream to Dream View Post
...Can you say that in a public forum?

Maybe not on a Spanish forum, but it exceeds the FCC's four-letter list.
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:32 AM
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Default factory vs. handload

I got a .357 recently, took it to the range for trial. I didn't chronograph the rounds but went through a box of Hornady 158 gr. JHP and Pow!, Pow!, Pow!... I was impressed. I also brought along some hand mades to test out some starting loads. I think it was 18.2 gr. of 2400 with a 110 gr. JHP. and BOOM!, BOOM!,BOOM! I was REALLY IMPRESSED. Granted there are differences between how a 158 gr and a 110 gr bullet shoot, but there wasn't any comparison in power between these two loads. I mean this was a STARTING load. My book lists 20 gr. of 2400 as max (I'm getting a new manual tomorrow) so I wonder if I will be able to work up to max loading or have to stop because my teeth have shaken loose. Handloads for me from now on.
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Old 01-19-2013, 02:05 AM
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A lot of good info on the guns, how they got data back with the 10 inch test barrels,then the 7,then getting a 6" vented barrel as a "Standard" test tube but not always followed,some even with 4 inch barrels.

However we must learn that each model,be it a N frame, the K frame which was made with a weak barrel,with the bottom shaved to make the parts fit correctly,to the light J frame of today............. that they were made for a certain ammo and velosity of their time.

Longer barrels did get higher velosity but trying to get maximum out of a 4 inch of today is asking too much of the revolver. We need to know what a gun is capable of and not try to squeeze more out of it,even though it states..."Magnum". You can't get N fram velositys from a K frame and hope it will last or be safe for that matter.

A good "Factory " magnum load is posible with most guns but can they hold up ? L frames and up,yes...............
Feed your guns the correct ammo and make them last...........
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Old 01-18-2017, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightowl View Post
cups and psi are not equal. From what I have read, there is not arithmetic formula to convert one to the other, either. Don't understand that, just repeating what I have read. So I am not sure there is any difference in the actual pressure pushing the bullet out of the barrel in those numbers.
You are correct, the two methods have nothing in common. Crushed copper vs transducers, if you take the time to read the differences they are quite dramatic. Did they really lower the velocity or is it just the way it is measured, still not sure. You could possibly test some of the new US Manufactured ammo to the new PSI against some foreign stuff that still goes by the old pressure method, I hear Fiocchi and IMI are two that do.
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Old 01-19-2017, 12:12 PM
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The .357 was, and still is a great cartridge capable of many things. Over the past few years it has become overshadowed by the "bigger and badder" cartridges. Sure, it does recoil a bit but it's nothing even an average person can't handle, if someone thinks the .357 recoils too much the shooter is just a *****.
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:29 PM
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Kidd 44 got it right I load to max with my 686 and shoot rapid fire Double action, burning 2400 powder. I shoot 50 rounds and get small groups at 25 feet. It's more fun than sitting on the inside wall of the Indy 500 time trials like I did in the 70's. Great way to get and audience. Of course, I do the same with my Ruger SRH. Thanks to my Uncle Raliegh for teaching me revolver at age 9!
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Old 01-26-2017, 04:17 AM
caleb4387 caleb4387 is offline
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With today's bullets they don't need to move as fast and can actually be detrimental if pushed too fast. We no longer rely on velocity to expand we also n
Know that velocity doesn't really matter in. Defensive round in a handgun. Underwood and buffalo bore Stoll make very hot 357 and 38 special loads
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Old 01-26-2017, 04:32 AM
caleb4387 caleb4387 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XTrooper View Post
You can only feel this way if you believe kinetic energy has absolutely no effect on a living target. Some pretty smart folks believe it does. For my part, I shoot the hottest stuff I can skillfully handle.

P. S.- I know people who've been cooking for 40+ years and you still wouldn't want to eat one of their meals.
Some pretty smart people also believe the world is flat
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Old 01-30-2017, 05:38 PM
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I have a couple of reloading manuals from the mid-70s and with the exception of some newer powders the loads seem to be the same. For example using 10.2gr of Blue Dot behind a 158gr JHP is still a decent load then and now.

I used Blue Dot a lot back then but find TiteGroup meets my needs better as I also load .38 Special, 9mm and .45ACP.

Just my 2 cents.
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