Regarding the .45 Colt and .44 Magnum (historical not comparison)

[awebzz]

I have a question which remains in my mind after reading about the history of the .45 Colt and .44 magnum cartridges.

What drove individuals such as Elmer Kieth to experiment with hot loading 44 special cartridges, leading to the development of the 44 magnum, when the .45 colt (a magnum-level round) had been around much longer and is capable of higher energies?

[Dragon88]

45 Colt capable of higher energies? The 45 Colt is a low pressure holdover from the blackpowder era. The 44 Magnum is a modern, high pressure, very high performance cartridge that is capable of much higher velocities with same bullet weights.

The 45 Colt is a great cartridge, but it is not a "magnum level" round. What some people are doing with the cartridge today in modern "Ruger only" loads doesn't count, as they are exceeding the cartridges specifications and essentially creating a new cartridge that merely shares case dimensions and general concept, not pressure level. Throw a ruger only 45 Colt load in a black powder frame SAA and see what happens. Actually, don't do that because you'll destroy a fine old gun.

[scattershot]

I think Keith wanted the extra beef in the .44 cylinder. They are the same diameter on a SAA, and the smaller hole equals more metal around the hole.

[awebzz]

thank you, this helps me understand better. and as always I'm owning my ignorance

[ddixie884]

Kieth went to the .44spl after blowing the loading gate off a .45 Colt SA, and almost severing his trigger finger, shooting 300gr .45/90 boolits sized to .454 and loaded over all the black powder, ground fine as talcum, he could compress in a case. Kieth was a Montana cowboy, and the Colt single action was his arm of choice. Look at the chamber walls of a Colt .45 SA sometime. He seemed to think the Extra metal in the cylinder was worth the sacrifice in caliber, as he settled on 250gr bullets in both calibers. Read "Sixguns by Kieth", and be amazed, I was................

[Gun 4 Fun]

Keith started off by experimenting with the .45 Colt, but after blowing up several SAA's (the only commonly available gun at the time chambered for the round), he switched to the .44 Special. The SAA chambered for .45 Colt has almost paper thin walls in the cylinder, especially over the stop notches, and back then the cylinders weren't heat treated like later versions.

I disagree with Dragon88. The .45 Colt was considered a "magnum" back in its day, though that term hadn't been used yet, and wouldn't be until the big British Nitro rounds started seeing use on this side of the pond by African bound hunters. Compared to all the other pistol rounds that were commonly available, it was a real powerhouse.

Also, the .45 Colt is the same round regardless of what gun it is used in. The original round had to be kept low pressured/powered intentionally because there were simply no guns around that could take what the round was capable of if loaded to its full potential. It was simply a matter of the round being ahead of its time technology wise. Too, it was invented in the age of black powder only loads in 1873 along with the new Colt Peacemaker SAA, and to reach the desired level of performance the case had to be large. Large enough to hold the amount of black powder it took to meet the army's requirements. If they had had the technology to heat treat steels, and used a slightly heavier cylinder, we most likely would have never seen the .44 magnum invented.

[Ron H.]

Originally Posted by awebzz

I have a question which remains in my mind after reading about the history of the .45 Colt and .44 magnum cartridges.

What drove individuals such as Elmer Kieth to experiment with hot loading 44 special cartridges, leading to the development of the 44 magnum, when the .45 colt (a magnum-level round) had been around much longer and is capable of higher energies?

Sir, Elmer Keith did experiment with hot loads in .45 Colt, and he broke several guns in the process. From that, he concluded that the .44 special, with more steel between the chambers and at the aft end of the barrel, was the better way to go for really hot loads.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

[haggis]

Stretch the .45 Colt case, thicken up the brass, bump the chamber pressure a lot, and you have the .454 Casull. Stretch it some more, bump the pressure a bit more, and you have the .460 S&W Magnum. These revolvers are generally 5-shooters to get thick enough chamber walls in something that doesn't require a tripod mount.

BTW, the blackpowder "Magnum" of its day was not the .45 Colt but the .38 WCF, or .38-40, for more velocity with a still-appreciable bullet (180 grains).

Buck

[ddixie884]

In 1956, when "Sixguns" was Published, there was no heavy factory load for the .44spl, and no .41 or .44mag. Kieth said, limited to factory loads, he would use the .45 Colt. There was only standard WW, and RP rnfp lead bullets available.

more info;

Kieth also loaded heavier bullets in .38/40, using .40/82 rifle bullets, and designed 260gr .44 and.45 bullets for Belding and Mull, that looked like the 200gr .38 super police bullet. "Sixguns by Kieth" really has a lot of this info.

[Gun 4 Fun]

Originally Posted by haggis

Stretch the .45 Colt case, thicken up the brass, bump the chamber pressure a lot, and you have the .454 Casull. Stretch it some more, bump the pressure a bit more, and you have the .460 S&W Magnum. These revolvers are generally 5-shooters to get thick enough chamber walls in something that doesn't require a tripod mount.

BTW, the blackpowder "Magnum" of its day was not the .45 Colt but the .38 WCF, or .38-40, for more velocity with a still-appreciable bullet (180 grains).

Buck

Buck,
Magnums aren't always measured by velocity. If that were true, then many of the big bore rifle rounds that are truly magnums wouldn't be such as the .458 Lott, .416 Rigby, etc.

Most of the time the term magnum is used to describe a round of a given caliber that has more power from either firing a heavier bullet than standard, or a heavier bullet at higher velocity than others of like caliber.

BTW- Dick Casull used standard .45 Colt brass to create the .454, and develope the ammo for it. The brass was never thickened, just stretched to prevent the use of the new ultra powerful, higher pressure round from being used in any .45 Colt chambered gun. The .454 has a SAAMI MAP spec pressure of 65,000 PSI, exactly the same as the .460 S&W.

[awebzz]

So what I'm taking from all this is that now that gun technology has progressed, the .44 magnum is basically an out-dated round for its purpose. Yet the .44 mag still remains vastly more common to buy as well as guns which chamber it, compared to modern day larger and hotter cartridges such as .454, .46 etc

What do you guys make of this?

[max]

The 41 and 44 mags are the top end loads that MOST people can easily handle. They are available in easily found and relatively inexpensive pistols.

[ddixie884]

max is right IMHO, standard magnums are also much cheaper than .454s or other more powerful rnds. That is important to the non-reloader.

[Gun 4 Fun]

Originally Posted by awebzz

So what I'm taking from all this is that now that gun technology has progressed, the .44 magnum is basically an out-dated round for its purpose. Yet the .44 mag still remains vastly more common to buy as well as guns which chamber it, compared to modern day larger and hotter cartridges such as .454, .46 etc

What do you guys make of this?

No,
the .44 is not outdated. Not by any stretch. It was, and is a very powerful round, and also very useful for many things, and just like the .45 Colt, in the correct platform like a Redhawk or F/A it can be made to far surpass any factory ammo except for the stuff made by Buffalo Bore and Garrett.

It is far more common and the choices of ammo are greater by far than for the .45 Colt. All I was saying, (and I believe the others too) is that if the first guns for the .45 Colt had been stouter, there probably wouldn't have ever been a .44 Magnum invented since there wouldn't have been any need for one.

[Texas Star]

I think Keith said that the standard .45 Colt would shoot through a horse or cow. That's really pretty impressive.

The 1961 revision of, Sixguns is well worth having, as it let Keith discuss the .44 Magnum.

If you need more than a .44 Magnum, I think you need a rifle. Also, there is a theory that the ultra powerful handguns may damage wrists or injure hand bones. They have also caused cases of "tennis elbow."

The original .45 Colt load with 40 grains of BP blew up some early guns, and it was often loaded with 35-38 grains. The Army load was the same 28 grains as for the .45 Schofield. It seems to have been adequate, because the special M-1909 .45 Colt load for the Colt New Service in US use gave simmilar velocity. I think one reason for the light military load was that many soldiers couldn't handle recoil well. Nonetheless, it was condsiderably hotter than the British .455.