Chuck Hawks' writes the 147gr 9mm ammo is useless for self defense. He recommends anything else but 147gr ammo. Hickok45 says he shoots nothing but 147 gr. ammo. Is this THAT big of a deal?

I bet Chuck Hawks would think differently of 147 gr 9mm ammo if someone was shooting it at him.

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My sgntr is mor thn 30 chrctrs

IIRC, Mas says there appears to be a difference between the dismal performance of the original 147-grainers released in the late '80s and the better performance of those released since the late '90s. I'll tell you one thing - a lot of 147-grain ammo seems to be very accurate from many of my guns.

Some people believe that a 147gr HP lacks the velocity needed to reliably expand, and they feel that a 124gr has enough to expand.

Personally I carry 147gr Win T-Series, although I am switching to 124gr+P Speer Gold Dots in my 9mms.

I feel like the 147gr would be completely adequate for Self Defense, as I am of the crowd of 'a bullet is a bullet, regardless of caliber.'

I am switching to the 124gr only because I have a local source where I can get them for a better price, and I cast and load and mainly shoot 124gr, so I figure I'll keep the weights the same across the board.

Back in the late 90's, our agency ran the full FBI protocol with both the 147gr Black Talon and Speer Gold Dot. Both were extremely reliable performers, regardless of the test media utilized. These bullets are both constructed as premium defensive ammunition. Both were also wonderfully accurate, as Erich indicated the 147's are. We did experience several officer involved shootings with the 147's and performance was never an issue.

I firmly believe in two hallmarks: a well constructed bullet and accurate placement. I personally think most of the rest of it is people trying to sell you something.

The (very) early 147 gr 9mm was intended to stay subsonic while fired through suppressed submachine guns. When fired in the much shorter barrels of pistols.....it left something to be desired.

As pointed out, bullet design has come a long way. As have the loads. Federal Hydra-Shoks were the most accurate 9mm I've ever fired and hit exactly where my night sights were. That is, a wee bit low from more traditional ammo. They also behaved exactly like the ads said they would in tissue simulant and were just a tad under the 1000 fps claimed.

Despite the fact that bullet placement is more important than what the bullet is, my personal preference is for something lighter and faster. I just prefer something else.

I shoot 147gr bullets out of my 5904 because they hit closer to the POA of my fixed sights. I carry the 147gr Winchester Ranger T-Series rounds daily. I agree with what the others are saying here. Bullet design and construction has come a long way. In my opinion, being hit center mass with a Talon, Gold Dot, Golden Sabre, Hydra-Shok, etc. would cause the bad guy to have a very bad day.

When they first came out with the 147gr 9mm, my old partner said that they just reinvented the 9mm into a semi-auto 38+P.

I can't disagree with his conclusion. However, I don't have a problem with a 38+P that holds more than a dozen rounds.

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6/23/2022

The problem is nowadays too many people are paranoid about "over penetration." Too many people want you to believe that heavy bullets with any kind of real velocity are a bad thing. As such, too many 147 gr. loadings are watered down to the point where they don't perform well. There's no reason a good 147 gr. jacketed bullet can't be loaded to 1100+ FPS in any service grade semiauto pistol.

Dave Sinko

well as i always told the younger officers, there is no magic bullet, it is shot placement. one of our officers shot a guy twice with the 147 grain black talons, neither bullet expanded but the suspect died on the scene anyway.

Don't put too much weight on anything Chuck Hawks says...he regurgitates a lot of Internet rumors as fact.

[QUOTE=MOONDAWG;135972667

Boys-n-girls their ain't no magic bullets...they all work when placed where they need to go...[/QUOTE]


That goes for a .22 short all the way to a .50 BMG, as shot placement is king.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

The 147 gr I shot in my P-89 were accurate so I would call them good. That gun is long gone and I have never run them through the current CZ. In the 9 I would go with something that groups well enough to give you confidence and practice enough to sustain that confidence.

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Front sight and squeeze

In all the ballistic tests I've read, GENERALLY the heavier bullets get better penetration, lighter, faster ones get better expansion. We want expansion, we NEED penetration.

Sitting around reading that drivel will rot your mind......
Been to a good USPSA or IDPA match lately? Did you hit what you shot at?

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Science plus Art

That's correct, and he has a grudge against S&W, for some reason. There are hundreds of people on this forum that are just as knowledgable as him, or moreso, but just don't choose to have their own space on the internet to launch 'articles' from.

Do you shoot it accurately and it functions reliably in your pistol? Can you get enough of it to know? Those are the big questions for me.

It's funny, but the they light and fast crowd claims that 147gr are ineffective, while the heavy and slow crowd claim that 115gr don't work.

Local PD's out here (West Coast) have been using heavy bullets just fine, while light bullets like 9bple has worked just as well for LE (East Coast) over the years. Maybe it's a East vs West Coast thing. Of course, there is always middle the road for those that are undecided

Locally, 147gr is less popular in the retail shops so I can always find it. It feeds and shoots straight. That's good enough for me!

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NRA Certified Instructor

I was going to ask who the heck is Chuck Hawks , but instead I went to his website. All I'll say is, he should stick to quantum physics. IMO!

"quantum physics" is that what he needs to take when hes constipated?

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Currahee

Hello,
My former department, LAPD has used Winchester 147 gr. Ranger ammo for a number of years. I've been retired about 5 years now, but my understanding is the above load does well in field shooting, providing of course the shooter does their part!

Regards, John Helms

I've never understood how these things can be considered useless for self-defense:



While these things are the ultimate death ray:



Same bullet, same weight, same velocity (about 950 fps).

I like both loads - the 9mm is better than it's reputation, and the .38 is not quite as fearsome as the hype would have you believe.

I know guys that have used the 147 grain 9mm in shootings, and they had no complaints.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

9mm 147 grains at sub-sonic velocity or .45 230 grains at sub-sonic velocity? Hummm...

Winchester Ranger 147 grain 9mm is what I use in my 3913.

Great round. It works and works well too. Accurate out of the 3913 and most other 9mm pistols I own.

I don't think I'll be switching to any other round. Regards 18DAI.

I'm down with Horandy 115 gr Critical Defense. Penetrates nearly a foot in gelatin covered with cloth to simulate clothing. Line up some gallon water bottles, recover the bullet (from the third or fourth jug), and tell me you still don't believe in hydrostatic shock (note....wear raincoat)! Hornady : Law Enforcement | Products | 9MM LUGER FTX™ - 9MM LUGER 115 gr. FTX™ CRITICAL DEFENSE®

If you know the history of the 147 gr, you know it was a bad idea right from the beginning.....

The current FBI issue 9mm ammo is a 147 grain Gold Dot. Its been used in several shootings, and expansion has not been a problem.

We went to this ammo after the much criticized 115 grain Silvertip launched by Jerry Dove into Michael Platt on 04/11/86 expanded in Platt's upper arm and didn't penetrate far enough into his chest. Hence our obsession with deep penetration.

The 147s penetrate extremely well, and the good ones expand, too.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

The FBI got all weirded out about "penetration" after Miami. Clearly they had tunnel vision for a while. They got their info from military types who had never actually shot anyone with a handgun hollowpoint. Handgun stopping power is multifactorial, and dwelling on any single factor to the exclution of others, is a fools errand!

Plus, for a while there was this obsession with pistol caliber carbines/subguns. Everybody figured they were going to get better velocities from those long barrels, so the heavy and slow issue didn't seem like such a big deal to some folks.

I paid my way through college working for the medical examiner of a large populous county in the southwest. Later, I taught human anatomy and physiology for a few years. Saw a bullet wound or two! There is a lot more to the equation than just penetration. Nobody I saw survived because of lack of adequate penetration!

I don't know of anyone who was properly "Mozambiqued" with any 9mm round that complained about the lack of effectiveness of the round.

This thing is a gunwriter-generated tempest in a teapot. There are three things that count, in order:

1. Shot placement
2. Penetration
3. Bullet expansion

You can't win without the first two, and the third is useful although less necessary.

Buck

Nothing more sinister there, than poor shot placement!

In reality, the huge tactical blunder in Miami, was that they showed up to an automatic rifle fight with some handguns and a shotgun! Same lesson got repeated yet again in North Hollywood, a few years later. I never see a patrol car these days that doesn't contain a rifle....so lesson well learned.

I would hope working in the medical examiner's office you wouldn't see anyone who survived anything. (I'd put a winky smiley face here if I knew how)

I came into the Bureau five years after the Miami shooting. The lesson was still fresh in everyone's minds. I've met some of the guys who were in the shooting, and John Hall, who headed the unit that instituted the ammunition testing protocols, was my legal instructor at Quantico.

Anyway, the events of that day have been picked at ad nauseum. There are several threads regarding it here. I'll take a swing at two of the most common fallacies, though I'm sure it won't make any difference.

- The Agents brought pistols to a rifle fight.

There was a whole squad of guys working the rolling stakeout that day. Some had M-16s and MP-5s, as well as shotguns. It turned out that those guys weren't in on the takedown, which was decided upon quickly to prevent a shootout in a more populated area. Gordon McNeill, who was the squad supervisor and could have easily been in his office with his feet up (where most Bureau supervisors would be), elected not to use his 870. Instead he shot Matix in the face and took him out of the fight, using his personally-owned, Bureau-approved, Model 19 snub. Ed Mireles famously used his shotgun, but it really didn't have much impact on the outcome of the fight.

I'll grant this - in those days the Bureau was much more pistol-centric. We tended to get things done with our sidearms. I'm still that way, though now most of the younger guys I work with can barely bring themselves to knock on a door without an M4 on a tactical sling.

- The Bureau blamed everything on a single 9mm round.

Again, the internet chatter is untrue. There was massive soul-searching in the Bureau in the wake of 4/11/86. Lots of things changed - tactics, training, policies, and more. The ammunition tests were just one part of it. But we are a closed society, and most of the soul searching was done where we do almost everything - behind closed doors.

Believe me - nobody in the Bureau was "weirded out" over anything. The ammo guys did a methodical examination of every shooting in the Bureau's history and came up with standards for a bullet to meet based on those actual shootings. One thing they found was that we shoot a lot of people in cars. That and other factors led to an emphasis on penetration. I happen to agree with it, which is good since I have to carry what they give me. Since we don't issue ammo to other agencies, I don't see why everyone else got bunched-panties syndrome. Use what you want.

But I will say this - had Jerry Dove put a 147 grain hollowpoint in exactly the same spot as he did that Silvertip when Platt was rolling out of the Monte Carlo, I have no doubt it would have plowed a hole straight through his black heart. His blood pressure would have dropped to zero, his Mini-14 would have clattered to the ground, and his face would have bounced off the pavement. The boys would have killed or hooked up Matix, it would have been a one-day story in the paper, and nobody here would have any reason to debate it.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

No stupider than saying 147gr 9mm ammo is worthless...

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My sgntr is mor thn 30 chrctrs

What is unfortunate, is that civilians followed your agencies lead. Just like everybody went out and bought a "Dirty Harry" gun just because of a movie, everybody jumped on the 147 gr bandwagon just because it was the "FBI load" (I did so myself...for a couple days). What may be appropriate for YOUR agency, is NOT necessarily what is appropriate for the civilian carrying on the street or defending their home (the majority of the folks here in this forum I presume), but many an average Joe may never have considered that fact.

A civilian with even minimal common sense, isn't going to engage in a protracted running gunbattle on the street. If he does, there will no doubt be some unpleasent legal consequences! What a civilian needs is to fire a round or two to save his life, then break off the confrontation, find cover, and give law enforcement enough time to show up and take over. The civilian's most likely target will be an unobstructed chest shot....NOT shooting up cars. Lungs in particular are not very dense, so you need a bullet that will penetrate through a rib/sternum, while expanding violently. Otherwise, you just end up with a tiny little 9mm wide hole.

I'm glad you've found something that works for you.

Personally, I think ammunition is about the least important factor of the myriad of things that make up a self defense shooting, but it sure is fun to talk about.

One day soon I'll retire, but even then I think if I occasionally carry a 9mm I'll still use the 147s. I like a round that will punch through hands and forearms and belt buckles and boom boxes (iPods now, I guess) and leather coats and whatever else might get between me and a bad boy's plumbing. But that's just me, and I certainly see your point.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Wow, people sure get excited and feel strongly about a 32gr difference in a bullet.

If someone has more than anecdotal evidence of the current generation of 147gr ammo (HST, RangerT, GoldDot, Golden Saber, etc)

1. failing to expand
or
2. over penetrating

I would be interested in seeing it.

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NRA Certified Instructor

From Dave Spaulding (same topic on another forum)

"Just got off the phone with a friend in the South. One of his officers was attacked at close range with a knife during a building search. Suspect came "out of no where" and the officer shot from a close retention position...sounded like the classic speed rock. Officer fired one round of Federal 147 grain +P HST from G-17. Round entered the high chest under the up raised right arm, traveled across the body and stopped just short of exiting the left side of the chest. Bullet was recovered in a perfect mushroom measuring .65 caliber. Remaining rounds in the gun's magazine were clocked by the Ballistics Unit at the Crime Lab from the officer's gun. Average velocity of 1,089 fps. The current 147 9mm round is NOT the round of yesteryear."

When I was still working, I really like the 147grn bullets in my MP5 that was supressed. I don't care for them in my pistols. But to each his own.

Retirement is really, really good.

Rule 303

Welcome to the 90's.

Besides the fact that the FBI didn't, bullets were killing lots of things for about 400 years without the ability to expand. All sorts of dangerous game gets whacked to this day by non-expanding bullets by choice.

There's a sentence in the FBI's report on their ammunition testing that says in effect: You should look at the tests that most closely meet the YOUR requirements and choose the ammunition appropriately.

These are some nice 147's.

DoubleTap Ammunition

Reading sigp220.45's postings made me realize that I've not shot 147-grainers lately in the PPS that I carry so often, so I ran a number of them through the gun today at the range. It reminded me how accurate and pleasant-shooting these rounds are. Think I'll have to shoot them more often - and I think I may actually carry the little things more.

Why don't you take a look at the OP's first post. Maybe useless and worthless don't mean the exact same thing, but they are pretty darn close.

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My sgntr is mor thn 30 chrctrs

Speer Gold Dot 147gr. is my No.1 carry load in my G19

Winchester Q4296 +P+ 147gr. (38 Special) are in my 3" K-Frame

Winchester X357SHP 145gr. are in my 3" L-Frame