I have read that you should never use any ammo over 125 gr in a 9mm handgun. The article stated the 9mm was only suited to use 125 gr or less. Is this horse pucky or misinformation? Anyone carry & shoot the 147 gr ammo without any problems? Any info is appreciated.Thanks!

I've shot 147-grain 9x19 without problems through every 9mm I've owned since the late '80s (with the possible exception of the Rohrbaugh - I honestly don't recall whether it's had 147-grainers through it). It works wonderfully well in the Sigma - very accurate.

What article are you talking about?

It was on the high road forum. I don't have it bookmarked though.

The 9mm Luger was developed with the 124gr bullet before WW I, and with the powders generally available, the heavier bullets were inferior for the German military. The 9mm was the largest cartridge that would fit into the already-existing designed 7.63mm Luger, which was judged inadequate by the German army.

In WW II, the 115gr bullets were used to save material.

With some slower twist barrels, the 147gr bullets do not stabilize at slower speeds.

Most modern 9mm pistols shoot 147 full-power loads just fine using the powders now available.

And that's basically the Reader's digest version of the story.

Luger History Society

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum

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Science plus Art

All my defensive ammo is 147 grains. If 147 grain FMJ was more readily available here I'd buy it, too. My Beretta 92 loves the stuff, and I'm a big believer in hitting an opponent with the heaviest JHP slug I can find.


Whoever told you that 147gr. doesn't belong in a 9mm is either wrong, trying to sell you a lightweight-hyper velocity bullet(like Ed Sanow and Evan Marshall), or an idiot....

I had the same question about a month ago, and since then, I have put about 100 rounds of the 147gr Winchester white box through my 9VE without any problems. Works great, the only ammo that I have had any problems with was today and they were 115gr FMJ reloads from Atlanta Arms. Up until then, everything that I put in it has fired great.

WWB 147-gr ammo is amazingly accurate.

The original 9x19mm bullet designed by Georg Luger WMD made by DWM of Germany was a 124gr Truncated Cone FMJ. Also cataloged by DWM were a Truncated Cone HP and a rounded FMJ in the same weight. Shortly thereafter came the 115FMJ.

Over the years many different bullets/loads were developed for the cartridge, from light weight practice rounds and wooden bulleted blanks to heavy 170gr FMJ's for suppressed guns. The 147gr loads really didn't come into existence until the early 1980's. (see below)

I won't stoop to your level of name-bashing or name calling, but it is quite obvious that you're lacking in knowledge about where the 147gr 9MM came from.

Back in the late 70s to early 80s the military was looking for a 9MM load for use in suppressed subguns (HK MP5) for the Navy Spec Ops guys. Their requirement was for a bullet/load design that was accurate enough for long(er) distance sniping (so to speak) along with some slight expansion. Both Federal and Winchester were involved in the contracts. The first load developed was a 140JHP (named the Type-B). That load was dropped and the bullet's weight was increased to 145grs. (the Type-L). The final design was bumped up to 147grs., which gave cycling reliability and accuracy along with some slight expansion on targets. This final load was designated the Type-L (for subsonic) Olin Super Match (OSM).

Along came the Miami-FBI incident in 1986. The FBI needed a scapegoat, so they chose their issued 9MM duty load, the Win 115STHP.

The FBI developed their Wound Ballistics workshop and after the testing was done they chose to issue the OSM load to replace the STHP until they got their 10MM project off the ground. Many LE agencies decided to jump on the bandwagon and go with the same 147JHP subsonic load for duty issue. Not wanting to miss the Gravy Train, other companies like Fed & Remington started bringing out their own 147 subsonic loads. These early loads, using conventional designed JHP bullets (except for the Hydra-Shok design) were erratic in performance in real world shootings (human beings aren't blocks of ballistic gel) and some agencies were reporting some malfunction problems with their pistols (heavy slides & recoil springs + heavy bullets and reduced powder charges for subsonic velocities = lower slide impulse).

The OSM load was designed as a mission-specific load for use in suppressed MP5's and NOT as law enforcement duty loads to be used in pistols.

And that, my friends, is why you find older articles advising against the use of the heavy 147JHP subsonic loads. Modern bullet designs we have today are much better than the original 147JHPs, but you can still find the original, unchanged OSM bullet design in Winchester's economy line USA "Personal Protection" 147JHP (erroneously dubbed WWB). This continues to be one of the very worst 147 loads one can use (even Federal "gets it" and has redesigned their 147JHP 9MS bullet since it's first introduction back in the 80s).

There is some excellent 9mm ammunition available that exceeds 125 grains (i.e. 135 +P Federal Tactical). I am aware of LE agencies that use, and are quite satisfied with, the 147 grain 9mm in the Federal HST, Winchester RA9T, and Speer Gold Dot. I would carry any of the three without complaint, although my preferred 9mm round is the 124 +P Gold Dot. Folks may or may not like them (thats their perrogative) but to definitively state all 147 gr. 9mm is unworthy of duty or SD use is incorrect.

And you would be wrong..........



As for my name-calling, it was a response to the gobs of misinformation out there, both on the internet and in gun shops, regarding guns and ammunition. I certainly remember when 147gr. bullets did not have a good reputation for proper expansion, and I am glad that those days are behind us. A modern 147gr. slug that is properly designed will be a good SD round for the caliber, and is my personal favorite.


A quick story about stupidity and ammo: I was looking at a pawn shop's handgun selection several years ago when Makarovs from Russia and Bulgaria were flooding the market. All of theirs were in 9mm Makarov, yet they were being sold with a box of ammo............. CCI 115gr FMJ in 9mm Para. When I asked their gun guy about why he was selling the wrong caliber ammo with the pistols, his response was " It says 9mm, don't it?"


Always do your own research, which the OP seems to be doing and is to be commended for.

i shoot this in my x-d subcompact, and my browning hi power. i use hornady 147 gr. personal defense. never had an issue. heavy slugs are where its at for self defense loads. stay away from sub-sonic in my humble opinion. i'm no ballistics expert, but it doesn't always function properly in my 9mm's.

Function problems with 147 grain ammo usually occurred because particular lots were underloaded, sometimes vastly so. My old department had one batch that chronographed at 700 fps, +/-. It caused us to begin testing new lots to check quality control. Because of the negative feedback, the manufacturer made sure that velocities were to spec after that point.

As far as the old Winchester OSM being one of the "very worst 147 loads one can use", that was not my department's experience, nor any other documented department that I am aware of. Back in 1991, in the IWBA journal, the late Eugene Wolberg, Senior Criminalist for the San Diego Police Department, used 27 shootings with that load, to write the definitive paper on the efficacy of 10% ordnance gelatin, in predicting a projectile's expansion and penetration in human tissue. Gene's job was made easier by the fact that the data from his department's field shootings were all from autopsies. When I spoke with him around that time, every shooting they had with OSM, that involved at least one torso hit, had resulted in the subject's incapacitation, and demise.

Is bullet technology better today? Unquestionably. Today, bullet weight isn't as crucial to bullet performance as it was in 1987. Today there are 124 grain and lighter bullets, that are designed to give adequate penetration and expansion, (though the 147 grain versions will often perform slightly better).

But was the Winchester 147 grain OSM, a quantum leap ahead of the 90-124 grain, hyper-velocity, under penetrating rounds, that were touted by gunwriters with financial agendas, before, (and after) that?

Absolutely.

I've run a bunch of Fiocchi 147 grain rounds through my P-95 and they were amazingly good. They've become my round of choice.