I'm not sure if this has been discussed already but does anyone know if the 147gr JHP golden sabers will perform good out of a 3.26" barrel? From what i've read the 147gr performs the same as the 124gr +p minus the extra wear on the firearm but I haven't found any solid info on how they perform with a shorter barrel. Obviously the 124gr +p are faster than the 147gr. The box has the 147gr at a little over 900fps. The firearm I'm using these in is a H&K P2000SK LEM model, so if the 124gr +p golden sabers would be a better round i know the H&K can handle it. Any info will be appreciated.

IMO a 124gr bullet at standard pressure is just fine in the 9mm. There's no good reason to increase the pressures to +P limits. Also, a 147gr bullet is too heavy in the 9mm, again IMO. Like I've said in other threads, I like to use the bullet weight for a caliber it was developed with. In the 9mm that's a 124gr bullet at standard pressures. I think increasing the velocity in the 9mm is counterproductive.

For some reason many current shooters judge a round by it's velocity. Faster isn't always better...

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The 147gr. 9mm is a reinvention of the 158gr. .38 Special, particularly out of a shorter barrel.

If you want penetration, use the 147gr.

147gr 9mm is a well accepted round by folks that play the IDPA game. It's accurate and easily makes power factor. That bullet from Precision Delta and a bit of Tightgroup is what I have seen people run through all kinds of Glock's, XD(m)'s, M&P's and others. If barrel length is a factor, I have not seen it.

Although the bullet you are questioning is not the same as what I have experience with, I would think the difference would not be that great. But, I could be wrong. Your "any info will be appreciated" comment gave me the excuse to ramble, I hope.

I favor the 147gr 9mm JHP for duty/defense and it is used extensively in LE. Works very well out of short barrels as the 147gr does not loose much velocity. I would go with the Federal HST or Winchester Ranger T over the Saber. Bill

Believe me, 9mm +p & +p+ work VERY well. The latter moreso. By using a 147 gr. bullet you are basically turning a 9mm into a lumbering .38.

Not so, but you are free to believe any opinions out there.


I keep nothing but 147gr. bullets in my Beretta and Hi-Power handguns, and with modern bullets, will perform just fine. I'm a big believer in throwing the heaviest bullet I can find at my opponent, and the 147 grain hollowpoints will do the job.

watch for the 147gr bullet tumbling in flight it happens.
you will have better results with the 124gr +p loading though the 147gr golden saber is good but its slow and doesnt deliver as much energy as the 124gr +p will, nor will the 147gr penetrate as well due to low velocity and potential for more expansion.

not all 147gr jhp are the same golden saber is one of the best hollowpoints available.

All the good 147's work fine from shorter barrels.I use 147 gr Ranger(RA9T) or Federal 147gr. HST.
Not enough loss of velocity or penetration and expansion to make a difference vs. a four inch barrel.
In my own testing the Sabers did fine but I had some petals that broke off in the medium.
I like the Rangers and HST better. I am running HST's in a customed Glock 26 and they are tack drivers,a little faster than the Rangers,and a pussycat to shoot.

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Thanks for all the info, much appreciated. From the few tests I have seen with the 147gr golden saber vs. the 124gr +p golden saber the 147gr penetrates more and expands slightly more. I think I'll stick with the 147gr.

Can't beat the 147g HST. Ample penetration with great expansion.
Would not leave home with out it.

I've shot everything from 115gr on up to the 147gr. For me (and maybe me only) I'm more accurate with the 147. Accuracy trumps bullet weight. I have all my 9mm's loaded with Winchester Ranger or Winchester Bonded PDX1; both in 147gr.

The modern batch of 147 grain 9mm's are not your father's 147 grainers. These rounds simply work. They have the advantage of being subsonic and therefore don't have that loud crack when going off. Being slower they lose a smaller percentage of their velocity out of short barrel. The test results I've seen with the 147 grain golden sabers have been very impressive. They are very accurate in all my Glocks too.

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Indeed shot placement is far more important than bullet weight or even what type of bullet you are using. I was curious as to how the 147gr performed out of a 3.26" barrel and it seems that they perform the way they are intended to.

That may very well be, but I only know of one confirmed LE shooting with the 147 gr. HST and it was a point blank through the armpit. In the meantime, until a CREDIBLE pool of "Real World" shootings occur I will stick to my +p+ as I know it works.

To paraphrase Jeff Cooper, if accuracy were the only consideration, or even the premier consideration, we would all be shooting .22LR and be done with this issue.

What one chooses must provide accuracy, penetration and expansion if possible.

For my part, I have read enough testing info, such as formal test (e.g. FBI sponsored) results, forensic pathologist opinion, emergency room staff anecdotes and backyard stuff posted on the internet to believe that penetration is a critical concern. Critical organs and structures must be disrupted to maximize stopping a threat.

Base your own choice on a balance of performance characteristics.

Ghost Soldier,
Check out Tnoutdoors9 on You Tube. He does a lot of ammo testing and has some great videos. This should help to answer some of your questions.

I use the 147gr Ranger or PDX1 Winchester round. Their website has terminal ballistics for these two brands. I compiled the data and graphed it in the attached image. I did not compare against the 127 or 124 variants. Interesting results don't you think?

Attached Images

ranger_ballistics.jpg (12.4 KB, 719 views)

At the moment I'm using 124gr. Gold Dot +P in my 9mm pistols, but as soon as I build up enough of a supply I'm switching to Winchester 147gr. Ranger T. The only reason is I can't find Federal HST in my area!
The new breed of 147gr. 9mm works very well indeed, this isn't the old OSM load that was designed for accuracy more than terminal performance.
As to +P+, why would you want to subject a perfectly good pistol to out of spec ammo? This stuff is HOT and most manufacturers will NOT warrant a weapon for use with it! Secondly it's a well known fact that police departments that did issue this particular loading had to sign a waiver with both the ammo company and pistol manufacture because of the load being over pressure!
Look, you've spent a lot of cash on a perfectly fine pistol that will give you years of service as long as you maintain it properly, so why beat it too death with over pressure ammo? If you need a hotter round, the .357 SIG is available as is the .40. Dale

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Badkarma;

That Speer load you are using may well have the best record in actual use of any 'modern' 9mm loading today...it is excellent. Having said that, I, too, use the Ranger T 147gr...and HST would be fine as well if I could locate any at less than scalper prices. Today's top tier 147gr JHPs are completely different to the older ones many here remember.

The old WW ISP 115gr +P+ JHP load did, indeed require the agency to sign a release of liability form. Not so any loads in +P+ released since that I am aware of. I'm pretty sure that ISP load was seriously smoking hot, as an ISP armorer once admitted to me that they ran a constant 'caravan' to S&W in Mass. with broken guns (M39s and M439s)that needed repair while they used this load...might be true or not but that is what he said. I have a box here but have only ever shot 50rd of it (the guy gave me 100rd) and it did not impress me any more than the later Federal 115gr +P+ load. I still have the second, unopened box.

I have seen studies that say the current WW 127JHP +P+ Ranger T runs around 42,000PSI...again, they might be true or not...but what I know for a fact is that the two agencies locally that went to it in their Glocks had excellent field results, and also had more documented gun problems while using it (around 600 or so guns total) They have now gone to the 124gr JHP +P Ranger T and are still happy.

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My wife, Luscious, refers the 147 out of her M&P9C due mainly to the recoil characteristics. The recoil is more of a straight back "chug" than an upward "snap" if that makes any sense.

Other characteristics are that they shoot lower because it takes longer to exit the barrel than a 124 grain, and the cycle rate is slower for the same reason.

I do respect Archangel's well-informed opinion and use 124 in my 5906 as the Standard but I don't argue with Luscious (been married 33 years and intend to keep it that way!) as that's the most comfortable round for her based on her experience and preference. I always load up a thousand practice rounds in 147 using plated bullets to keep her POA/POI consistent.

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^

Do people not understand that pressure is the enemy of a contained space? This is the last number one wants to use (or brag about) as a measurement of effectiveness!
If the velocity is acceptable with standard ammo increasing it a few FPS by over-pressurizing the chamber is not a good tradeoff!

ISP went to Win. because Fed. would not load the BPLE rd. hotter. That was because ISP wanted a minimum of 1,300 fps and the BPLE did not always average that. The Win. 115 gr. +p+ is smoking hot. It averages 1365 fps in my G19.

As for durability, the S&W guns of that time were not noted for durability nor anything else for that matter. A Glock can shoot +p+ all day long. I have shot thousands of +p+ through mine. So can H&K.

Simply put, +p+ is like the hammer of Thor for those who have seen it work.

So I guess barrel length is negligible with these different ammo types? That was the main part of my question, how the 147gr performs out of a 3.26" barrel. All the tests I've found online were using 4" to 5" barrels. Thanks again everyone. I appreciate all the different opinions.

I recently chrono'd some 147 at 10' out of a 4" 5906, 3" Sig 290 & 3" Kahr CM9, from my records...

147gr Ranger SXT
4" 5906 - 948 fps
3" P290 - 893 fps
3" CM9- 863 fps

147gr JHP W-W Subsonic
4" 5906 - 986 fps
3.5" 3913 - 989 fps
3" P290 - 943 fps

147gr Lead FP 4.4gr AA-5
4" 5906 - 894 fps
3" P290 - 818 fps
3" CM9 - 796 fps

I don't know about a caravan, but when we were looking to buy new service pistols & convert from revolvers, I contacted ISP about their preventative maintenance program. I was shocked to learn that they just shot 'em till they broke. They didn't even change recoil springs on a regular basis! Or at least that's what the guy at their Academy told me at the time (~1991). Our armorers do tear downs, ultra-sonic cleaning, inspections and repair/replace as necessary every 6 months.

I see no good reason to use +P+ ammo. I've tested a few different examples and discovered that I could use +P of one brand and clock faster velocities than another's +P+. The other issue was projectile integrity and penetration. Driving a bullet outside its design envelope can result in bullet failure (complete fragmentation) and the newer bullet designs don't have to be driven at warp factor 1 to expand.

My department issued the Federal 124 gr.+P+ at least until after I retired. I know cause I did the purchasing. We issued Glocks and never were asked to sign any waivers by anyone. By the way it's a sweet shootin round!

Sent from my Ally

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The .357 Sig round uses 9mm bullets pushed to velocities well above +P+ 9mm and no problems with bullet failure that I am aware of.

Sent from my Ally

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+p+ regards pressure not velocity
0mm +p+ pressure can range from 37,501psi to 50,000psi or more
357sig uses bullets designed to handle higher velocities and pressure up to 357sig saami max 40kpsi.
9mm bullets have a velocity range in which they will function properly
Hornady's website use to list such data for theyre xtp line
other manufactures were pretty close to the limits minus speer golddots which are thick coated plated bullets.

It's pretty widely known on the Glock Forums that the 357 SIG round causes premature wear on pistols.

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So what are the preferred home defense rounds in 9mm?

After looking at ballistics charts, Something in the middle-weight range?

Hydrashok, HST, Gold dots?

I'm in total agreement.

The reason ISP had to sign a waiver is because both Federal and Winchester specifically designed their +P+ loads for ISP and no one else. These loads were the very first +P+ loads developed for LE and they continue to be the top 9mm stoppers in actual shootings.

I shoot ranger +P+ 127gn in my Glock 26 and 17... No issues whatsoever, and excellent accuracy....
I also shot this load in a beretta 92FS and a Browning HiPower.
It is highly recommended.

I second that! ( Ranger 127+p+ )

They were the predecessor of the what the .357 SIG is today and they are real "channel changers".

I can't help but wonder why so many people place their lives in the hands of a bullet they have never used let alone seen used on a human being. Ballistic gel tests are merely an abitrary standard that was decided upon by the FBI after the Miami Shootout of '86 when in typical Gov't fashion they blamed the bullets and not the stupid agents who refused to wait for backup and went Cowboy on two rogue bank robbers armed with rifles and a history that showed no reluctance to use them. That is why they had their butts handed to them. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

I use the 124 gr Gold Dots. We can really get to splitting hairs here.

We were discussing bullet weight for a single caliber and the accuracy or stopping power thereof. Not which caliber was more accurate or more suited to the job than another.

So most of you are saying go with 147? Good to go in a 9 compact?

Yes. Provided,of course,it's accurate in your gun. I use 147 almost exclusively with one exception.I have one older Glock19 that is just not accurate at all with it.I keep 124+P for that one. Same brands,Rangers or HST's.

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I'm in 100% agreement with you BOGE.

Well, since 99.9% of us have not been witness to a shooting death much less caused one, laboratory standards will have to do. Reliable comparisons to a standard can be made based on gathered data in a controlled setting. We rely on scientific method and it works.

Even if someone has solid first hand evidence, it gets argued. There is another thread where a coroner with 30 years experience espoused a certain caliber and bullet weight based on his actual findings in performing autopsies on hundreds of dead bodies yet was still getting lip from those who "know better."

Boge;

I cannot disagree with any of this - spot on.

Wasn't that the fella that was totally discredited as a Walter Mitty?

Even so, a coroner/ME can tell you what EVENTUALLY killed someone & they can give an educated guess on how long they took to die, but most importantly they can only rarely tell you what that person did in the time period between being shot & expiration. In other words, it's all ex post facto. Sure, you may have pumped seven .45 HP's into some bad guy and he died 5 mins later. In the meantime he pumped fifteen 9mm into YOU! This is something the coroner/ME may very well not know nor show in his/her report. Therefore, one has to talk to people who were there & saw it or were a participant and even then things can get sketchy.

It's like lion hunting. You have to be right every time but the lion only has to be right once.

The late Stephen Camp wrote a lot on the Browning HiPower and his favorite loads in 9mm.
Here is an interesting article on the 127gn +P+ Ranger:
Field Report
And another:
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/B...0gr%20Ammo.htm
Here is another on the 147's:
The Browning Hi Power and 147

I will stick with the 127's, which are in the Glock 26 in my belt right now.
In every 9mm I have shot this load, it has proven very accurate.

There is a great thread over on the AR15 forum about modern ammo and which loads are most effective. I can't say it presents a terminal argument, but it is very well documented. Several calibers are tested in balistic gelatin. The Gold Dot 147 gr is what I have chosen to carry. The article is pinned at the top of the Ammo section of the AR15 forum.

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I thought I was on the S&W forum but with all the glock fanboys I must have went to glock talk by mistake.

Hey fanboys go to Google or your favorite search engine. Type in glock kaboom and let us know how many hits you get. Perfection my .....

Actually, if you look at the specs for the 357 Sig, you'll note that while the bullet diameter may well be 0.355 inches, the bullet weight is 125 grains. Since there are few, if any, bullets designed for the 9mm Parabellum of that weight, it follows that the 125 gr bullets were designed specifically for the increased velocities of that cartridge. In fact, the design parameters for that round were to come as close as possible to the performace of the 125 gr .357 Magnum round. Additionally, the bullet design for the Sig is maybe 20 years more modern, and benefits from development since then, than that of the slug used in the classic 9BPLE load.

Now, I have no doubt that there are some folks who load regular 9mm bullets, but how well they'll perform is going to be based upon what velocities their design envelope will tolerate. The major ammo makers specifically catalog a 125 gr bullet for the 357 Sig. I know that the 115 gr bullet used by Federal in the 9BP/C9BP doesn't do well at 9BPLE velocities in test media, tending to fragment excessively. Nor does it reportedly do well in extra large economy sized felons. It does seem to do quite well in other circumstances.

While the various test media don't really represent a humanoid body and are not predictive of "street results", they do allow comparisons of bullet design performance under identical conditions.

NO- A 147 gr shoots higher than a 124 or a 115 out of the same gun; Simple physics- the 147 is moving slower and exits the barrel later in recoil than the 127/115gr. Her gun is not different, her POA/POI may be the same, but that is due to her sight alignment and the height of her sights. A similar example is a standard 40 SW from any company , most are zeroed with 180 gr, if you put 135 gr corbon in it it will hit about 10-12 low a 25 yds. I would keep her supplied with whatever works, I keep my wife supplied with 230 gr 45 FMJ for practice and ranger 230 gr +p for carry. Be Safe.

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Exceptions to everything I guess.I use 147 in everything,but I have one G19 that actually shoots LOW with 147. Same sights on all three G19's. 124+P and 127+P+ is dead on in this gun ,so that's what it gets.

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"...I thought I was on the S&W forum but with all the glock fanboys I must have went to glock talk by mistake..."

".....Hey fanboys go to Google or your favorite search engine. Type in glock kaboom and let us know how many hits you get. Perfection my ....."

LOL, there is one in every crowd. Glock hater, that is.