Hornady Critical Defense vs Critical Duty?

I'd love to find a source for the Critical Duty ammo......I've tested the Critical Defense ammo in water jugs and wetpack, and while it displays consistently wonderful expansion, it is all light-for-caliber, and I'd like a bit more penetration than it offers. More bullet weight with the same expansion characteristics would be awesome! I have tested Critical Defense ammo in 380, 9mm, 40S&W, 38 Special and 45ACP, and for summer carry it's fine. In winter weather, I want something that handles barriers/heavier clothing better.

Anyone have a source for the Critical Duty ammo?

This bullet, BTW, was fired from a 3" barrel in my (yecch!) Kel-Tec.

IMG_8301.jpg
 
The only thing the FBI-FTU/BRU says about expansion is that penetration shouldnt be sacrificed for expansion, and vice-versa.

A good bullet will be at its peak expansion within 2 inches of penetration, and will maintain it until it terminates.
 
ElectroMotive said:
A good bullet will be at its peak expansion within 2 inches of penetration, and will maintain it until it terminates.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that I would entirely agree with this statement either. A good example would be the Grizzly Xtreme ammunition. ( Grizzly Xtreme)

While it's a solid copper round like the Barnes X bullets, it maintains it's fully expanded diameter after penetration, causing massive deceleration and underpenetration. On the other hand, the Barnes X does not maintain full expanded diameter and the petals fold back, reducing the drag profile and increasing the depth of penetration.

The only way I could think of maintaining the diameter of full expansion without reducing penetration is to reduce the diameter of the fully expanded round?
 
neo said:
I'm not sure that I would entirely agree with this statement either. A good example would be the Grizzly Xtreme ammunition. ( Grizzly Xtreme)

While it's a solid copper round like the Barnes X bullets, it maintains it's fully expanded diameter after penetration, causing massive deceleration and underpenetration. On the other hand, the Barnes X does not maintain full expanded diameter and the petals fold back, reducing the drag profile and increasing the depth of penetration.
Click to expand...

Please note that I said "a good bullet". That means a bullet that meets and exceeds FBI and IWBA specs. That Grizzly bullets looks like it was designed for those willing to accept expansion over penetration.

The only way I could think of maintaining the diameter of full expansion without reducing penetration is to reduce the diameter of the fully expanded round?
Click to expand...

Good JHPs do not open like that Grizzly and then peel back towards the base. The peel from the beginning of expansion.

What you are seeing between 2-7 inches in gel penetration is not the crush cavity of the bullet, but temporary stretch cavity. In living flesh the TSC is temporary do to the elasticity of human flesh. In gel it stays because it isnt living.
 
ElectroMotive said:
Good JHPs do not open like that Grizzly and then peel back towards the base. The peel from the beginning of expansion.

What you are seeing between 2-7 inches in gel penetration is not the crush cavity of the bullet, but temporary stretch cavity. In living flesh the TSC is temporary do to the elasticity of human flesh. In gel it stays because it isnt living.
Click to expand...

I would debate that to a certain extent. Within the temporary stretch cavity is also the tissue damage where the expanding petals cut. Although they do open from the front and peel back, the recovered diameter is not the maximum expanded diameter. That's one of the reasons why rounds like the Federal EFMJ/Guard Dog doesn't work as well. While it expands creating a marginally larger crush cavity, it doesn't have the jacket edges to lacerate as it expands. The greatest laceration occurs in that first 2-7 inches. Don't get me wrong. I'm not dismissing the crush cavity, I'm just emphasizing the lacerating from the expanding/peeling jacket.

EDIT: I just remembered the term I was thinking of. "Reverse taper jacket." It started with the Black Talon and most "good JHP" use it today. It essentially keeps the front of the bullet near the ogive from peeling back and the petals open first. Then they peel towards the end of expansion, increasing laceration.
 
Hapworth said:
Excellent post. I'd also like to see where FBI testing protocols specify degree of expansion; not saying it isn't out there, just haven't found it.

I have a different take on Critical Defense versus Critical Duty, which comes down to: same round, but the latter has more pepper.

And before you entirely dispense with Critical Defense, take a look at Brass Fetcher test results in both 10% gel, and gel with a bone plate; I think Hornady made a good round for snubbies:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/38 Special/38 Special Bone Test.pdf
Click to expand...

I tested the .380 version of Critical Defense into bone and the bullet shattered...whereas the Barnes counterpart crushed through the bone and penetrated 5". I don't blame the design, insomuch as I do the diminutive caliber. I don't know if the bullet is built a little tougher in bigger calibers.

I was a bit surprised to see the bullet fail so badly against bone, when their XTP bullets are tough bullets.
 
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In my limited trials of shooting water jugs and wood and magazine bundles, the critical defense expands too fast as compared to critical duty . This statement is only based on visual signs and that with water jugs there was no exit hole just a big rip with Critical Defense, with Critical Duty there was an exit hole and a big rip.

The duty ammo penetrated deeper and held together better in wood and magazines.

If I had a choice I use the duty version, but, I would not be concerned
of failure if I used the defense ammo.
 
Anyone have a source for the Critical Duty ammo?


Papa;

Last week I bought two boxes of CRITICAL DUTY from Cabelas for a little over $22. per box. I have not tested them yet.

Cabelas also had CRITICAL DEFENSE, and ZOMBIE ammo in stock. ( in 40 S & W anyway).


T.L.R.
 
T.L.R. said:
Anyone have a source for the Critical Duty ammo?


Papa;

Last week I bought two boxes of CRITICAL DUTY from Cabelas for a little over $22. per box. I have not tested them yet.

Cabelas also had CRITICAL DEFENSE, and ZOMBIE ammo in stock. ( in 40 S & W anyway).


T.L.R.
Click to expand...


SGAmmo.com has them in stock and in the 50 round boxes.
I bought 9MM two weeks ago for somthing like $26.00 a box of 50 from them.
 
Thanks fellas, I just found the calibers I was looking for at Midway, and ordered several boxes to test. I thought it might have been restricted to LE only, and I ain't dat no mo. Gracias!
 
Pappa
when you reorder get them for SG you will get boxes of 50 instead of the 25 rders from midway.
Let us know your test results.

Pete
 
SG Ammo has some very good prices.
Just purchased 500 rds of Remington 148gr LHBWC for about $14.75 per box compared to every where else wanting $35. per box.

That is crazy cheap.
Shows you how much mark up there is on ammo.

I always liked mom and pop stores cause they work by volume to make money instead of gouging(JMHO).

Clarence
 
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ArchAngelCD said:
And when was the last time you had to shoot into a windshield to protect yourself from a bad guy?
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Anybody had the dream where they shoot a bad guy center mass and the bullets don't penetrate because he's wearing four layers of denim?

I'm serious, I had this dream recently. :o

In it, the rounds were Hornady Critical Defense, which, frankly, is why I've gone and found as much reassuring info on that round as I can...
 
hi

Critical duty are bonded rounds that will penetrate barriers, glass, car doors, and then expand in flesh. Critical defense is more frangible, which is exactly why I prefer it. If I have to shoot a bad guy, and I miss, the round on critical defense upon contact with an object will lose energy very fast and not penetrate. The critical duty could get you in a lot of trouble if it goes though something and kills an innocent person. I have watched a lot of youtube videos on Hornady critical defense though gel medium with 4 layers of denim, and it doe's just fine.
 
Hunterfz6 said:
Critical duty are bonded rounds that will penetrate barriers, glass, car doors, and then expand in flesh. Critical defense is more frangible, which is exactly why I prefer it. If I have to shoot a bad guy, and I miss, the round on critical defense upon contact with an object will lose energy very fast and not penetrate. The critical duty could get you in a lot of trouble if it goes though something and kills an innocent person. I have watched a lot of youtube videos on Hornady critical defense though gel medium with 4 layers of denim, and it doe's just fine.
Click to expand...

The Critical Duty is not bonded it is banded.
 

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SicSemper said:
None of the rounds pass; the 9mm 135 gr in bare gel need to expand to .533 min in bare gel it passed with; but with heavy clothing it only expands to .494. 9mm +P 135 gr in bare gel expantion is .581 pass. Again in heavy clothing expantion is .517 fail. Same stuff goes with the .40 cal.
source http://www.hornady.com/store/9MM-LUGER-P-135-gr-FlexLock-Critical-DUTY/
Click to expand...

The 9mm 135+p passed all of the required tests. In fact, Critical Duty is touted as the ONLY ammo to pass all of the FBI requirements.
 
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