Personal Defense Rounds

RAM1299 · Jul 17, 2013

I am new to the S&W Forum, so I do apologize if this has already been addressed recently. What are some opinions out there regarding specialty personal defense ammunition from a legal standpoint? I recently purchased a box of DoubleTap Equalizer just to try. My concern is if you carry this sort of "specialty ammo" and you had to use it in a personal defense scenario, would you be okay since it is a round marketed for personal defense, or would the prosecution have a field day saying you bought that kind of ammo intending on killing someone if you had to shoot them? I can see that possibility, but on the same token, I usually carry Hornady Critical Defense or Federal Hydrashock in my EDC and these are also designed for personal defense. Now obviously if my family's lives were in danger and I eliminated the threat, then good, but I would like to avoid getting put in prison with some guy named Bubba. Thoughts?

Pisgah · Jul 17, 2013

If your ammo is factory loaded, and your shooting is justifiable, the type of bullet used will not even be a factor in court. Deadly force is deadly force. Be sure its use is justifiable before you apply it.

moxie · Jul 17, 2013

From a practicl standpoint, specialty ammo has little, if any, real world use so conclusions as to its effectiveness are just speculation.

Use the stuff that's proven, like HST, Gold Dot, Ranger, Golden Saber.

Arik · Jul 17, 2013

^ this

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

Nevada Ed · Jul 17, 2013

If a shooting happens when you were going to the range and had target loads in your gun or you were getting ready for a BEAR hunting trip, when the shooting took place, has no bearing on what factory ammo was in the gun.

Don't shoot a person leaving or in the back, if no harm was done.
This will get YOU in trouble.

Fire75 · Jul 17, 2013

Unless u live in one of the terriorist states like new jersey.

hotrod150 · Jul 17, 2013

I notice everyone has emphasized that it won't matter which FACTORY ammo is in your gun. "Everyone says" that you shouldn't carry handloads for self-defense, but does anyone have any actual first-hand knowledge of a case when this had any legal bearing on the aftermath of a justified self-defense shooting?

ISCS Yoda · Jul 17, 2013

The self defense cases out there are legion. Whether the outcome, guilty or not, of any single case hinged on the ammunition used is hard to say. Whether any civil litigation subsequent to a criminal case hinged on the ammunition is equally hard to say. Nobody publishes these statistics. Usually, a good shoot is a good shoot. Pistol. Revolver. Single action. Double action. Handgun. Long gun. It simply doesn't matter - if it's good, then it's good.

So, the loose ends are these:

1. If you think your hand loads are as reliable as factory ammo, use them. I wouldn't do it if you gave them to me for free and if I shot a thousand of them with no problem in practice. First, because even after a thousand I'd still suspect their reliability; factory ammo doesn't cause me that concern. The factories are not infallible. But they're plenty closer to that than ANYONE's hand loads. Second, in the outside chance I get asked about the ammunition I want to be able to say to a certainty that I relied upon proven, effective ammunition, the same as the law enforcement community. Hand loads don't meet that standard.

2. I do NOT WANT TO BE THE TEST case. Period. Suppose the issue has NEVER been raised? Suppose I'm confronted by some drug crazed maniac and I have to shoot him a couple of times? I do not want the issue of my choice of ammo to be brought into question. Maybe it's a good shoot and the issue never arises. Happy days. If I stick to quality, factory ammo, designed for the purpose, I never have to think about the "what if" scenario. Helps me sleep well.

***GRJ***

RAM1299 · Jul 17, 2013

CTG_COLLECTOR, that was the way my common sense was pulling me. I'll blow up some watermelons or something with the Equalizer's and continue to carry my Hornady or Federal defense loads. Thank you for your reply.

Fire75 · Jul 17, 2013

People who spout: "Don't worry about it, a good shoot is a good shoot" just don't get it. They are living in a fantasy world and understand NOTHING about how the real world works. As we just saw with GZ's case, many of us felt that GZ's was "a good shoot" and was 100% justified in pulling that trigger. But others didn't see it that way and through political "jungle" politics, the state was forced to prosecute GZ.

You sir are no better than the people who say he was guilty! Where you there? How in the hell do you know he was justified?

blujax01 · Jul 17, 2013

Plenty of threads on the subject and they always end up the same way - locked.

Using the search feature you can find every opinion out there, all from citizens who are trying their level best to know the answer.

The bottom line is that if you are forced to shoot someone, you will be arrested and odds are that you will be prosecuted.

The type of ammunition used has never been a factor in a justified self-defense shooting.

That said, if you feel more comfortable with brand "A" over brand "B", go with it.

Keep in mind that 49% will insist brand "A" is better, 49% will insist brand "B" is better and 2% of us confidently hang out in the reloading forum.

alwslate · Jul 18, 2013

hotrod150 said:
I notice everyone has emphasized that it won't matter which FACTORY ammo is in your gun. "Everyone says" that you shouldn't carry handloads for self-defense, but does anyone have any actual first-hand knowledge of a case when this had any legal bearing on the aftermath of a justified self-defense shooting?

This issue comes up often with the self appointed experts
piling on with all the dire warnings about what MIGHT or
COULD happen to some hapless soul who only fired to save
his own life. A very popular and knowledgeable gunwriter
with the initials B.P. addressed this issue with his typical
low key common sense style in a recent magazine article and
put to rest the fearful nonsense. Conclusion; use your
handloads if that's what you prefer.

moxie · Jul 18, 2013

The only guy I know of who has exhaustively studied the issue of factory vs. reloads for SD and the implications in a prosecution is Mas Ayoob.

He says use factory only for SD. He has recounted cases where it made a difference. Why quibble?

Hoptoad · Jul 18, 2013

Pisgah said:
If your ammo is factory loaded, and your shooting is justifiable, the type of bullet used will not even be a factor in court. Deadly force is deadly force. Be sure its use is justifiable before you apply it.

I think this nails it.

blujax01 · Jul 18, 2013

moxie said:
The only guy I know of who has exhaustively studied the issue of factory vs. reloads for SD and the implications in a prosecution is Mas Ayoob.

He says use factory only for SD. He has recounted cases where it made a difference. Why quibble?

If by exhaustively studied, you mean he recounted "A" case, I agree. And that case was one of obvious murder where the defense attorney attempted to claim that because the rounds were reloads, the prosecution could not determine the intent. Ultimately the murder conviction was in no way based on this little tidbit.

I repeat yet again, that the use of reloaded ammunition has never been a factor in a justified self-defense case.

If you are not of a mind to use them, it is your absolute right to feel that way and you should by all means carry the ammunition that gives you the most confidence.

I know I do!

Via Con Dios

Rangerpat · Jul 18, 2013

Use the same factory ammo that your local law enforcement officers carry in their handguns.

Nevada Ed · Jul 18, 2013

Most people agree that you might shoot a person two times, maybe three if needed to stop the threat and have the courts dismiss you as a standard case of SD.

Now what if a guy has a standard shotgun..........and is confronted by police and told to put the weapon down.....

If the guy refuses and is found with 14 bullet holes in him ..........
can the police be held for not trying to take the person alive and taking "Target practice" on the poor guy ?
If you or I shot a guy 14 times, what would happen to us ?

Something to think about.

mistahd · Jul 18, 2013

Nevada Ed said:
Most people agree that you might shoot a person two times, maybe three if needed to stop the threat and have the courts dismiss you as a standard case of SD.

Now what if a guy has a standard shotgun..........and is confronted by police and told to put the weapon down.....

If the guy refuses and is found with 14 bullet holes in him ..........
can the police be held for not trying to take the person alive and taking "Target practice" on the poor guy ?
If you or I shot a guy 14 times, what would happen to us ?

Something to think about.

I'm sure the cops would be investigated. What happens from there I have no clue. I am not a cop nor do I play one on the internet. If I put 14 bullet holes in a BG before the threat stopped I either need to stop carrying a BB gun or take some training classes before I do carry gain.

If the threat is not completely stopped after 2 - 3 hits then I at least hope it is enough for me to get away from the immediate area and contact the authorities if that hasn't already been done.

shouldazagged · Jul 18, 2013

Rangerpat said:
Use the same factory ammo that your local law enforcement officers carry in their handguns.

I do something a little more old school: I carry the old Remington FBI load that also was used by many other LE agencies and has been around for decades. But it's not lawyer/prosecutor-proof--nothing is. I just prefer it because it works.

Smithsrevenge · Jul 18, 2013

Best legal standpoint you can have.

Next time you see a police officer in your town.

Ask him what they carry, then buy that.

Cops wont load junk ammo for 1

And second if you ever use it in self defense, if the DA goes after your ammo you have the "I use the same as such and such PD does"

They then have zero case against your ammo without crucifying the local PD which they WONT do.

Third Most firearms witnesses they will call will be from your local and state PD, who will most likely, defend your choice of ammo.

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