All I know is this........

If sixteen rounds of Win 127 +P+ doesn't stop someone, I shoulda brought a long gun.

Or stayed in bed.

There are many documented cases of all handgun calibers that failed to stop. And the difference in them in negligible.

9, 40, 45, it doesn't matter. Just shoot well. I stopped worrying about caliber long ago.

Stopping Power - YouTube

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I might add, in the original post, or by others here after, I didn't notice anything about re-loads of their ammo.


If you do re-load, by using silver of a melted cross instead of lead, and dipping the ends in garlic will not necessarly stop the bad guy.


Blessing your ammo before hand and praying that you hit what you aim for may help, but I doubt it...


I will go a little more to the distance, and that being.....stop watching all of those movies, where the bad guy gets shot and the bullet sends the bad guy back 5 feet. It doesn't happen that way. Nor do they always fall face forward.


Also, I believe "Bigger is Better", only on women!!!! ... Even women will tell you, it's not the size that counts....It's the motion of the ocean....

Other than that..practice, practice, practice...


WuzzFuzz

I carried a 9 mm in the service and never once did I think it would NOT stop my adversary......I bet my life on it.

I think you should shoot what you are comfortable with and staying in control of the weapon.. I got a question from a woman who has a much weaker wrist than a guy, about using a .22 cal. as a home protection weapon.

My answer is yes....if you can stay in control of the weapon.

In my mind..what is the sense of shooting a larger caliber and then having the gun jump out of your trembling hands and not able to able to take the second shot ?

I think this caliber thing is really over blown when it comes down to real life.
Bill

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'I know nothing'.. Sgt. Shultz

I'd suspect the suspicion of anything less than .45 in handguns dates back to the Moro Rebellion in the Philippines during the late 19th Century and the Thompson-LaGarde Tests at the Chicago Stock Yards in the early 20th Century. When the US Army declares they will not consider calibers less than .45 for handguns it leaves a lasting impression after multiple wars and millions of servicemen trained.

The deep seated prejudice that developed combined with more recent events such as the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout lead people to think that bigger or faster bullets would have solved the problems in whatever the situation.

Personally, I think anything less than .44 Mag is inferior, but I own a bunch of lesser caliber handguns and will use whatever is at hand when needed.

I'm sure ya can make any apples to eggs comparsion , but with equal barrel lengths and equal bullet weights , the 9mm when loaded to original Euro-specs , (not the liability lawyer watered down US-spec stuff) , the 9mm will win every time over the .38 Special , std vel or +P.

Much of the inferiority comes from the fact that for many years , the 9mm Luger was only loaded with the sorta pointy FMJ. Most factory stock 9mm pistols available up till about the 80s were only reliable with the FMJ. The keen eye will notice it's not totally unlike the old standard 158gr LRN , also a notorious non-stopper.

Given modern design JHPs , the 9mm has become very effective. I often carry my Firestar loaded with std.pressure 124gr Nyclads. Some of my other full-size 9s (CZ-75 , Star 30) carry 124gr +P+ Hydra-Shoks.

So has the old .38 Special! My 2in Mod.37 or 3in 36 is usually loaded with Glasers , but my speedloaders carry Nyclads , Hydra-Shoks , Silvertips , or the good ol' 158gr LSWCHP.

But the .38 bullet is a teeny-weeny bit bigger in diameter, and bigger holes make all the difference.

You probably have never been hit by one.

I watched a you tube video a while back that had an ER doctor talking about gunshot wound he had seen. He stated that all the handgun wounds from the common calibers of .38 special through .45acp pretty much all looked the same. You couldn't tell by the damage done what caliber was used until the bullet was recovered. He also stated that there was a huge difference between rifle and handgun wounds and that it was pretty easy to tell if a person was shot by a handgun or a rifle due to significantly more damage from a rifle. He did say that by examining the wound area you could tell if the person was shot with the good self defense rounds like gold dots and golden sabers since they tend to cut their way through tissue as opposed to just smashing their way through.

For everything out there someone will say it is not a good a _____ ! Different rounds in different configurations do different things. But if you don't hit the BG in a vital spot you pretty much didn't stop the fight. Nut like everything else said here there are exceptions!

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Retired Marine Gunny

My former Doctor , who interned at an ER in Philly , saw many gunshot wounds. He was also a member of my gun club and knew his firearms. He told me the most impressive damage he ever saw was from a .45 Glaser Safety Slug. He originally thought it was a .410 shotgun contact wound. He said the ragged 'rathole' was not overly deep , but the trauma and massive tissue damage led to rapid blood loss.

" the 9mm when loaded to original Euro-specs , (not the liability lawyer watered down US-spec stuff) , the 9mm will win every time over the .38 Special , std vel or +P."

What were these "original Euro-specs and how do they relate to the 9mm "winning every time?"

Nothing wrong with the 40 cal. But the 9 is fine too. Remember the 40 S&W duplicates the ballistics of the misnamed 38-40 cartridge so it is not really anything new.

Like I said , given bullets of equal weight , and barrels of equal length , the 9mm will be faster.

Generally European ammo is loaded hotter , or was , than US-SAAMI. Probably 100fps.

IIRC , domestic 9mm ammo was held to somewhat low pressure mainly because of concerns of firing it the the weak 1910 Italian Glisenti , which used a cartridge dimensionally identical to the 9x19mm Parabellum/Luger , but loaded to pressures approximately of the .380 ACP. Firing full power 9x19 could have you 'eating Italian'.

Concern of late effort WWII pistols made to dangerously low quality by slave labor is another story.

.38 Special pressure is about what , 17,500psi , 9mm 30-32,000?

All ya gotta do is check ammo makers ballistic charts. Most ammomakers have them on their website.

FWIW , the 8mm Mauser is in the same boat. IT was barely above the 30/30. For many years , US 8mm ammo was held to about 35,000psi out of concerns that someone would fire it in an 1888 Commission rifle with .318 barrel , not a '98 with .323 barrel.

WWII German ammo was in fact more powerful than our beloved 30-06. So was the 7.62x54R Russian

To the original poster, it's a personal choice so I don't care what you shoot, my thoughts are if you don't yet, start loading your own ,then you can have full power 40s and even 10 mms like the 40 love the 10

You are just not informed.

I got a chance to speak with the engineers from ATK at the SHOT Show last year. They were both 45 ACP ? full size 1911 guys. They developed the HST line of ammo for Federal and worked on the Gold Dots for Speer. The new HST 9 MM 147 gr +P round actually OUT PERFORMED the same bullet in a 230 gr 45 ACP!! not my data, theirs! Go to their website & look at their work. According to them, that load is deadlier from a G26 Glock because they could put all 11 rounds into a target accurately in the same time it took to fire 3.8 rounds of 45 from the 1911.

They both carry that load in a G26 or a Walther PPS.

Again, not my data, ATKs data!!

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Live Free or Die

No offense, but taking the word of engineers who have only lab experience is sort of like taking advice from a monk on lovemaking. These guys know that in order to garner LE contracts they have to pass the arbitrary FBI tests and everything else is secondary. Last time I looked Lewiston, ID & Anoka, MN weren't exactly hotbeds of crime.

I don't think any caliber is inferior at all. If you use the correct load, every caliber is deadly. Any good 9mm +P or +P+ is very effective. Keep in mind, there's a difference in ammo when it comes to commercial ammo and LE ammo. The LE ammo is always loaded properly and to full spec. I noticed this early on using various Amos and then using what the LE/MIL use. Definitely and difference. When you get into proper loaded 10mm ammo is where you can really start to see differences when it comes to deep penetration, but even that is subject to many various questions of effectiveness. If you think 9mm is inferior, try taking a few shots of it directly and tell me what you think.

Funny thing is I seem to have a mental block when it comes
to the 40 S&W round. I remember when it first came out there
were lots of problems with the ammo and feed ramps in some
guns. The hype about 45 acp power levels in 9mm size guns.
The problems with 9mm size guns being beaten up by the
high pressure 40 cal and the necessity of redesigning guns
around the new cartridge. And all for what? Nothing really.
There's really not much difference in effectiveness between
the best rounds in 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 acp. I don't own
a 40 S&W and never will. The 9mm is by far the most practical
all around pistol cartridge.

9mm and .40 both share the same maximum pressure.

.40 is the predominant LE round today, and as such, gets the most R&D. It is hard to find a bad .40 jhp load, while it is hard to find a good 9mm jhp load. Examples of exceptions on both sides exist, but as a general rule, it holds true.

All you need is one .....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

While it 9mm is fully adequate and is always an appropriate choice it has always seemed to me to be the single most overrated handgun cartridge, beginning with the press given it in the gun rags in about the early 1980s. On the handgun forums, one sees relatively few fans of other cartridges, especially the ones in the .40 caliber and up range, who ballyhoo their choices as "nearly as good" or "just as good" as the performance of some other pistol cartridge. They seem self-assured in their selection of cartridges for personal defense. It's the 9mm shooters who most often strive mightily to justify their pick in the face of other great choices. They seem the most driven to make their champion cartridge relevant.

...Well, except for me extolling the .38 Special, heh!

The 9MM has probable killed more people than any other caliber in the world.

Luger's, Beretta's, Sub-Guns and others.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

The 9mm is a very highly developed round in terms of terminal performance and accuracy, compared to what it was in 1908 (it is older than the .45 ACP round). It is an excellent practice round. And, it is better than the .380, the .32 and all of the smaller cartridges. In my mind, it is at its best in the pocket autos such as the Walther PPS, S&W Shield, Ruger LC9, Beretta Nano, SIG Sauer 290RS, Springfield XD-S, and similar small autos.

Its biggest advantage, its small size, allowing more rounds to be carried, is at the same time its biggest disadvantage, since it strives to be "as good as" the .40 and .45 in stopping power. And, after all, stopping power is the name of the game. There are those who argue it is equal to the latter two rounds, but no one who seriously understands the topic says it is better.

The measure of what is or what is not a good round is different for say, self-defense, than it is for a precision shooting match. What is not a good measure, however, is how many people have been killed in history by a particular round. It may take a person shot hours or days to day. What you want is stopping power NOW. For defense, you want a round that stops the attacker from doing whatever he or she is doing NOW. The 9mm is marginal in this respect, and the only way to get it almost as good as a .40 or .45 ACP is with designer or premium ammo, not always readily available when you need it.

The point is that when comparing the three calibers, there isn't enough of a difference in stopping power. Sure bigger will always be better. But for who?

And to say the 9MM is marginal shows a lack understanding to say the least. Handguns are notorious for NOT stopping someone. And there is plenty of well developed self defense ammo available for the 9MM than ever before.

If you or anyone else tries to tell me that the expansion difference in MILLIMETERS really makes that much of a difference then I know they're full of it. Same goes for penetration.

Wound channel, tissue damage? What a load of BS. Sure if you want to wait for the guy to bleed out then that's great! But the BULLET actually has to hit something vital and immediately incapacitating like the spine. So again a millimeter here or there means nothing. If you miss by a millimeter, SHOOT HIM AGAIN!

And the 9MM has always has the reputation for over penetration. But with todays ammo, that's no longer a concern.

Bigger is not always better.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Am I reading this right? Not sure what you mean here. The 7.62x54 Russian was/is an intermediate assault rifle cartridge. The 30-06 was a full battle rifle cartridge that tops the Russian cartridge velocity by a couple of hundred ft/sec.

7.62X54R Russian is the full-sized cartridge used in bolt-action rifles and machine guns and the like, you're thinking of the 7.62X39 Russian, which is used in the ****mat Kalishnikov and such.

Thanks, I was scratching my head there.

The 9mm, introduced in 1902, is 3 whole years older than the .45 ACP, introduced in 1905.

All handgun cartridges which date from the dawn of the 20th century and retain a high degree of popularity are more highly developed by this point.

The 9mm is mere millimeters larger than the 6.35 (.25 ACP). Both cartridge can be had with bullets that offer expansion. Yes, it really makes a difference.

Bullet placement is everything. Josef Stalin's personal executioner (yes, Stalin had one to take care of all those pesky folks that got in his way) killed thousands of victims with a .25 auto (a Walther). With 100% lethal hits on the first shot. His record was about 800 in one night.

Base-of-the-skull shot to the medulla? I seem to remember reading that somewhere, but never heard of the 800-killing night.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Bullet placement IS everything which was one of three actual lessons from the '86 FBI shootout (the other two --- actually WEAR your body armor, and accurate rifle fire > pistol or shotgun fire at medium range). Both of the perps continued to fight until they had received CNS (central nervous system) hits. Hits to the spine or brain will end a fight immediately. Two center mass and one to the head, repeat if necessary.

Vasili Blokhin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was this fellow.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

'cause you've never been shot with one?

I always say the same thing. If you believe the 9mm is inferior, just release me from liability and ill gladly shoot you with one. Let me know your opinion after being hit. Assuming you survive that is. Or perhaps you'd prefer I use a .22 or worse yet a . 25!!!!!!! Only making a point I would never shoot you.

Correct.

Barnes COTW lists the 154gr bullet of the M-N as hitting 2886fps and the185gr as hitting 2660fps. Doesn't say if it's the 29in barrel on the 91/30 or the 22in barrel of the carbine though.

The 150gr M2 bullet only hits 2740fps out of a 24in barrel of a 1903 or Garand.

I'm kinda scared you know this guy and his kill/death ratio.

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Matt H.

Maybe you've hit on it, partially: the 9 is poor, the 45 great and the 40 an inadequate compromise.

I too and do not see a need for the 40sw. The 40sw is not better than the 9mm in shootings and not has good as the 45acp. The forty will go way side to the 9mm and is in many L.E. roles today as they get rid of the 40sw. The 40sw is like a 16ga no better than a 20ga. and not a good as a 12ga. The 40sw kool aid has worn off. The 9mm is the most used pistol cal. in the world.

Here are my thoughts on the subject of caliber:

A Case For Your Carry Caliber and Why They All Suck | The Desert's Edge

Stalin's executioner is often mentioned in articles on the Katyn forest massacre. It's where I knew about him from. Uncle Joe didn't run a nice regime.

Don't know where you get your Law Enforcement Ammo, but every department that I know of gets theirs right off the self from distributers. The same place the gun shops get theirs from.

Really? Ever seen 9mm ammo that you cannot find anywhere other than LE distributors? Plus, have you used any .40 that everyone bitches about the government is buying up, like from Federal? I can tell you this, it ain't the same ammo. All the HD ammo these companies sell civilians certainly don't feel like the ammo I've gotten to shoot over the last few months. Also, see how easy it is to find the exact same LE ammo at regular retailers or gun shops UNLESS, they are a LE distributor.

Some things I have learned through the years is that if I stopped ten successive rhino charges with one respective shot each with a 9mm then it would still not be enough to convince some it's a good cartridge. On the other hand, if I showed a die hard .45 ACP lover, who has sucked up every Legion Hall BS story all of his life, ten successive examples of a .45 ACP not stopping someone they would dismiss it out of hand because "my Uncle Ralph killed 50 Krauts in the Big One with a 1911." Never mind that Ralph was a cook stateside.

All I know is what I know & what I've seen. Having said that I would take a 9mm stuffed full of 115 gr. +p+ JHP's over any .45 any day & every day. It works.

How many forum members have actually seen someone shot with a handgun, 1st hand?
I have. Big diff between ballistic gel tests and the real thing.
Bigger hole, more blood loss, more shock. Read all you want. Nobody knows anything with out having the experience.

I do love this kind of post. 90% BS and 10 % fact. Who gives a rats butt what caliber you think sucks. You shoot what you have and be happy you have it to defend yourself and family. Just hit where you are aiming, and I doubt there will be much of a problem.. IMHO

Last one I saw was shot five times with .32 ACP. The shooter started at his crotch and worked north. Taking him to surgery was merely a formality.

To each his own, and it seems most people have strong opinions about comparative caliber effectiveness. I'm a +P .38 Special throwback myself. But I know well-placed shots from anything from .22LR to .45 ACP will render someone null and void. I just happen to trust my .38's and my ability to shoot them.

Name your poison, boys. I'm out of this one. I'm sure a similar thread will be launched soon. Probably another one about .380.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Revisiting the post to see the latest commentary and a old incident came to mind, there was a killing in Bedford Pa, oh back around 1977 and the lead investigator was from our barracks, it turns out a married couple was in an argument and the wife decided to end the altercation with a shot to the chest of the man from a .25 ACP. Well it was a one shot stop and near instantaneous death, the tiny little bullet went through the heart, exited clean through, down the hall, through a closet door and was found lodged in clothing inside. I asked the Trooper, a .25 ACP did all that!??! Yup it did. Now does that mean the .25 ACP is the ultimate defensive caliber of choice, of course not. Once again shot placement and a rather unexpected performance from an anemic cartridge unfortunately did the job. Out here in real life I guess it really comes down to what you are comfortable with and are proficient with.

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Stay safe people!

Blood loss and shock don't mean a thing. Immediate incapacitation is desired. Blood loss and shock can be too slow.

Look at the many people that were shot in the heart only to run 40-50 yards before falling down and dying?

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

This guy confirmed what I have believed for a long time.

Hit the perp once or twice with a 380ACP to 45ACP and they will generally stop what they are doing.

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association