FBI's new 9mm ammo

shawn mccarver · Dec 30, 2013

As most of you know, the FBI put out a Request for Proposal (RFP) for four types of new 9mm ammunition. The four types are: (1) Service; (2) Training; (3) Reduced Lead Training; and, (4) Frangible. See RFP-OSCU-DSU1301.

The contracts have been awarded to three manufacturers, and not all manufacturers got all four types of ammunition.

Federal got all four types, Olin-Winchester got all but frangible, and Hornady got only frangible.

Here are the contract award numbers and the companies. The product numbers for each type of ammo are in parentheses.

Federal Cartridge Contract Number J-FBI-13-126

Service (54227),

Training (53685),

Reduced Lead Training (53690),

Frangible (ZBC9P1FBI)

Olin-Winchester Contract Number J-FBI-13-127

Service (Q4392),

Training (Q4395),

Reduced Lead Training (Q4396)

Hornady Manufacturing Contract Number J-FBI-13-128

Frangible (90229)

UPDATE: PER TELEPHONE CONVERSATION WITH WINCHESTER, Q4392 is a 147 grain Bonded Hollow Point, sold to other LE as the RA9B; Q4395 is a 147 grain Encapsulated, sold to other LE as RA9147FMJ; and Q4396 is a 124 grain FMJ Encapsulated with lead free primer.

BlackTalonJHP · Dec 30, 2013

Looks like the Federal ammo has Speer product codes (Gold Dots?)

This is speculation, but I think the Winchester will be as follows

Q4392 147 gr JHP PDX1 (Ranger RA9B)
Q4395 147 gr FMJ (Ranger RA9147FMJ)
Q4396 147 gr FMJ enclosed base (Ranger Q4358)

shawn mccarver · Dec 30, 2013

I have been so far unable to match up the product numbers, so I am not sure of the details of bullet weight, velocity, etc. of each type of ammo.

Boge · Dec 31, 2013

If they were smart (which they are not) they would simply issue Speer 124 gr. +p Gold Dots and pray that a Rosie O'Donnell type agent would not have her nose ring fall out under recoil and sue.

shawn mccarver · Dec 31, 2013

Boge said:
If they were smart (which they are not) they would simply issue Speer 124 gr. +p Gold Dots and pray that a Rosie O'Donnell type agent would not have her nose ring fall out under recoil and sue.

As the catalog numbers in question are not in any catalog or on any web site that I can find, I suppose we will have to wait until Olin-Winchester and Federal ATK reopen after the holidays. Then, we will have to see if either company is willing to disclose the information. I cannot imagine why they would not, but stranger things have happened.

Perhaps a forum member will come along who either works for Winchester or Federal or who knows someone who does.

I am interested to see exactly what service ammo the FBI has selected under this new RFP. And, if it is the NYPD Speer Gold Dot load, I will be most interested to see if the FBI starts having the Phase 3 malfunctions that have been a problem with NYPD. That type of malfunction seems only to rear its ugly head with the Speer Gold Dot load you mentioned.

Florida J Frame · Dec 31, 2013

Phase 3 malfunction ??? Could you explain?

Doug M. · Dec 31, 2013

And as I recall, only in G19s. Google it and you will find a lot of discussion on other forums.

FWIW, I know of a couple agencies that issue the Gold Dot 124 grain +P round and have had great success with it as long as the round hits the right areas. A really savvy Lt. at one of those agencies has provided some good info in another setting. I would not be hesitant to carry it.

Badkarma 1 · Jan 1, 2014

Fan into a local Senior Agent at a local shot I frequent, he said they were going back to the 9mm and showed us his G26. The load he said was a "147gr. bonded JHP" but didn't say make.
Personally I'm hoping its the HST or Gold Dot. Ranger T of late has been spotty performance wise.
Dale

Boge · Jan 2, 2014

shawn mccarver said:
...I will be most interested to see if the FBI starts having the Phase 3 malfunctions that have been a problem with NYPD. That type of malfunction seems only to rear its ugly head with the Speer Gold Dot load you mentioned.

Only with the NYPD, the same PD that just banned the Kahr 9mm for off duty carry as they had a dozen or so "accidental" discharges with a 9 lbs. DAO trigger I hear. No wonder Hillary Clinton got elected there.

shawn mccarver · Jan 3, 2014

UPDATE: Per telephone conversation with Winchester today, January 3, 2013, the descriptions of each Winchester round are as follows:

Service Ammo: Q4392 is a 147 grain Bonded Hollow Point, sold to other LE as the RA9B;

Training Ammo: Q4395 is a 147 grain Encapsulated, sold to other LE as RA9147FMJ; and

Reduced Lead Training: Q4396 is a 124 grain FMJ Encapsulated with lead free primer. This is not a typo - I was told, and confirmed, that this is 124 grain ammo.

John P. · Jan 3, 2014

It seems that the FBI has come full circle. I remember in the early 1990's they carried the Winchester subsonic 9mm. It was a 147 grain JHP at 950 FPS. Most agencies, including mine, went with this round, but over a few years most dropped it due to poor performance. Most agencies went with lighter and faster 9mm ammo. We went with the RA9TA the 127 +P+ Ranger SXT and we are very happy with it.

BlackTalonJHP · Jan 5, 2014

I was pretty close

8six3 · Jan 6, 2014

Recently I went to a ballistics demo with reps from Hornady and Federal. Federal rep made mention of a new ammo from Speer that the FBI just tested and claims is the best performing round they have ever tested. Didn't know if that was marketing BS or not but our agency also received info from the FBI Firearms Testing Facility and it included the test results of this new round in 9mm. I can not disclose that info but I will say I am anxiously awaiting the availability of this new round from Speer!

cpippen · May 30, 2014

I know this is an older thread but has there been any more information released about this new round? Is the FBI going to be using Glock 19's instead of 23's ?

Yorkie Man · May 30, 2014

We had the Win 147 subsonic and it was ****.

Here's a novel idea let them use what they have. With all of the government ammunition purchasing over the past few years they need to use a 40 until the ammo is expended. Does anyone remember agent Dove and the 9mm 115 silvertip? If they need new ammo that means that they need new weapons. What a waste of tax dollars

S&WForty · May 30, 2014

Yorkie Man said:
We had the Win 147 subsonic and it was ****.

Here's a novel idea let them use what they have. With all of the government ammunition purchasing over the past few years they need to use a 40 until the ammo is expended. Does anyone remember agent Dove and the 9mm 115 silvertip? If they need new ammo that means that they need new weapons. What a waste of tax dollars

Someone needs to tell them "shot placement is king."

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

M29since14 · May 30, 2014

I missed this earlier. Just flabbergasted to see the Feds being so frugal with our tax dollars that they actually buy a different type (actually several different types) of ammunition for other than duty use. Hard times must be upon them...

Texas Star · May 30, 2014

That guy who asked about a Phase 3 failure never got an answer.

I use 124 grain Plus P Gold Dots if I don't have Federal's 124 grain HST. If either has caused functioning failures, I need to know, but I can't see why they would.

Is this something specific to Glock 19's, and only in NYPD use?

Which 9mm did the FBI adopt? G-19's? Why was the .40 dropped? Were female or other small agents having trouble cycling .40 slides? Was recoil a factor?

Can special agents still buy their own guns, or must they now use issued pieces? If private purchase. what's allowed?

Jaymo · May 30, 2014

Y'all can have my share of 147 grain 9mm.
I'm still happy with 115 grain and 124 grain Gold Dot and 115 grain Cor Bon.

If I want .38 Special velocities, I'll carry one of my .38s and stoke it with 110 grain Cor Bon, or some Gold Dot or 158 grain Buffalo Bore LSWCHP+P.

Yorkie Man · May 30, 2014

I worked with quite a few FBI agents looking for a couple of robbery suspects and one incident that sticks in my mind was an agent that only had 3 rounds of oo buck for his 870 because the rest of his ammo was buried under his softball equipment in the trunk of his government vehicle. Most agents working at the FBI have no need for sidearms because they sit behind a desk and never leave the office. Everytime I was in their office no one that I saw was armed. I'll bet that all of the FBI agents combined fired less than 100 rounds last year in firefights.

20 years ago I went through the FBI's firearms instructors course that lasted a week. We were watching the so called expert show us how to shoot slugs at a full size b-27 target at 50's with an older 870 which had a 20" plain barrel with the bead on the barrel. After 5 shots, all of which missed the target, he looked dumbfounded as to why he missed. I suggetsed that he aim at the belt buckle and he hit the target all 5 times. Anyone that had used one of the older guns knew to shoot at the belt buckle because they shot high which is why Remington added a small ramp. This guy was their expert and he was a boob.

The agent teaching the class told us that the FBI used to let them have as much ammo as they wanted until someone he worked with was caught selling ammo and was given some jail time.

I am sure that somewhere in the FBI there are units that need to be armed but most don't for their everyday tasks.

FBI's new 9mm ammo

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