Do you realize what you are saying? You are implying that buying a bigger gun is not as important as TRAINING and PRACTICE. We in the US want our machinery to do all of our work for us. With us, it's about the equipment. If you put out your dough at the LGS you've got all the protection you'll ever need. Just owning it makes you a dangerous person to deal with.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

What has a better chance of stopping someone? A shot to the head or chest that is deflected by bone or a hit in the arm that is deflected by bone? I think there is a well placed shot, which is in your vitals, neck or head. If somebody is to be STOPPED, it isn't as effective to shoot off their fingers and toes as is a hit in a vital area.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

And when they put up their arms to protect themselves and your well placed head shot is deflected by forearm what then? People don't pose to be shot or let you take aim. The perfect shot in self defense situations does not exist.

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M&P Shield 9MM

I'm a few days late to the discussion, but good on them. In well-engineered loadings, the 9mm was never "inadequate" to begin with.

As a beginner l started shooting my PaPa's .45 at age 7 with Dad standing behind me. l shot my first 9mm after joining the Army out of high school in 1988.
As for 'stopping power', l remember being in Kroger one day when some kid snatched a purse from a buggy. The idiot ran past me on the sugar aisle and a stocker putting up 2 lb bags caught the thief squarely in the back at about 15ft with one. lt was a one shot stop as the purse snatcher went sprawling.

painting fans of 9mm with one brush is the same as saying fans of the 45 have a size issue. Bottom line is still shot placement.

Back in 1973 or so I attended a seminar on Bomb Disposal at the FBI Academy. One of the attendees was an inspector from the Philadelphia PD. In addition to the Bomb Squad, the Stakeout squad was under his supervision, and he was also talking about their experiences and selection of firearms. He related how they had gone from .38 special to .45 to .357 Mag. but finally returned to .38 special because the officers didn't hit nearly as well with the heavier calibers, and they had decided that a hit with a .38 was much more effective than a miss with a more powerful round.

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Tom
1560

I never said a perfect shot in self defense situations existed. Neither did I suggest that any shot could not be deflected. By bone or anything else. I'm just saying that a shot in the vitals is better than a shot in the arm whether it's deflected or not.

To answer '.....what then?' I keep shooting. I've never counted on a one shot drop no matter what the caliber is because If I ever have to pull the trigger once I'll pull it as long as it takes.

I'm not trying to be snotty, really. I'm just trying to clear through the murk and not lose sight of the basics.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

High mass at low velocity vs. low mass at high velocity. This story suggests that the former is better.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

And then there was this

Let's All Go To The Lobby (1957) - YouTube

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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

A bullet deflected by bone can just as well be deflected to a more vital area than not. One guy that I knew was an FBI agent who was in a shoot out in his first field assignment, and shot the bad guy in the right hip with his issue .38 special. The bullet deflected off the pelvic bone upward through the chest cavity and the heart before exiting through the left shoulder. A bad shot turned into a good shot due to deflection.

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Tom
1560

It still shows that there is no way to completely predict how a bullet will react when it hits clothing or flesh. There are just as many if not more similar stories where a bullet didn't even make it through clothing or was deflected by a forearm regardless of the caliber. Then again, sometimes it works like it is supposed to and hits the mark. In the case you described, the "perfect shot" happened from a misplaced shot. Again showing there is no such thing as a perfect shot at all. I'd still rather have a few extra shots if needed even if the first shot accidentally gets the job done.

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M&P Shield 9MM

Bullets do odd things...I was on a scene where a very large and strong young man was hit in the collar bone with a .380 ACP fired by his cousin during an argument. The bullet bounced off the bone and went stright into his heart. The young man expired on the spot.

A local cop friend of mine was involved in a bank robbery shootout where the bad guy took 14 good torso hits from a .40 S&W (165 grain) and lived to tell about the experience.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

(crosses self)


PS I heard that .38s lack penetration.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Another tale of deflection. My father worked 24 years for the local sheriff's department, and while he was there, there was an attempted escape. A prisoner managed to get a piece of pipe loose from the plumbing in his cell, and enticed the jailer into the cell block, hit him with the pipe and made a break for it. When the escapee went through the booking area, he passed another prisoner, a trustee who was working as a janitor. The trustee picked up a pistol from the drawer where they were placed by officers before going into the cell block, and shot the escapee before he reached the outer gate. Upon examination, the man was found to be shot near the spine, with the bullet exiting below the sternum. The coroner had a gun and fishing store about 500 yards from the jail, and he was sent for. The coroner upon his arrival examined the "body" and discovered the man was still alive, so he was taken to the hospital, but was back in his cell by the next day. It was discovered that the bullet, after entering his back, had followed a rib around his chest and exited in the front, with only minor damage.

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Tom
1560

Did they then deputize the trustee?

Good point. But it didn't cost the FBI anything. The money came from taxpayers, who otherwise would have just pissed it away on beer, anyway.

Well, the Ballistics testing is a continuous endeavor for the FBI. Equipment evolves over time. Would you have been happy had the FBI merely kept as their service weapon and ammunition whatever was available back in 1908?

The Government does not make money, period. Every expenditure by the USG is taxpayer funded.

FWIW - When Louis Freeh took the reigns at the FBI, he increased the drinking age of Special Agents from 21 to 57, the age of mandatory retirement. Under DOJ policy, food, drink, liquor, etc. is a prohibited purchase item. So we can't drink!

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No good deed goes unpunished.

I have a 9mm EDC, but also a M&P .40, so just to note I don't really have a bias to either... That being said:

The 9mm arguments are self-contradicting. If the 9mm is better because of shot placement and recoil... AND if the .40 ballistics can be matched by heavier +p+ 9mm ammo... Then you are left with a smaller frame gun experiencing higher recoil affecting shot placement. As for the guns being beat to death... their 9mm handguns will be reduced to garbage after shooting enough of that +p+ ammo to gain proficiency, which would be worse than simply mastering a .40 S&W that was designed ground up to fire that cartridge.

Furthermore, the reason that the FBI needed a new cartridge wasn't even addressed by the article (as I am sure the new politics are ignoring it). The reason was barrier penetration, which the .40 excels at. In the Miami Dade FBI shootout the bad guys were shooting from inside, then behind, an automobile. 9mm has lousy penetration after traveling through a car door or windshield. Their goal was to find a cartridge that would prove adequate penetration after passing through a barrier. That was the 10mm (which shortened down became the .40).

None of this surprises me however - our leadership in Washington is probably the worst in the history of the USA.

Good article, thanks for posting. I own multiple calibers (38, 40, 357, 45) but I always shoot my m&p 9 the best.

Now, for target I'm more accurate with my 45 but for fast, repeating shots to an 8 inch target 10-30 feet away, I always perform better with my 9 .

And that's what I'm looking for, 18 rounds on target as quickly as I can fire, my 9 gets me there...

I think that the best caliber is what YOU feel competent to shoot, and within that spectrum, whatever makes the biggest hole in the process of penetration to vital organs makes the most sense. You will also need to be able to properly manipulate the gun you choose.

Me?

1911
Glock 21
H&K USP
Sig-Sauer 220
Kahr CW

Any of these launching pads will do, depending on my mood and mode of dress at the moment.

Their common thread?

Federal .45 ACP 230-grain HydraShok ammo. It has a proven track record.

Probably most perps don't pause for moment to look down the barrel of whatever you point at them, but to those that do, the .45 muzzle must look like the Holland Tunnel to 'em. When just the sight of a gun can act as a deterrent, I'd like that sight to be a very impressive .45 caliber hole.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

I have never seen nor heard of a Glock 9mm being 'destroyed' by firing 9mm +p+ ammo. I've shot a boxcar load of it myself. As well, there's a retired Il. State Police Captain who posts here who wrote of a S&W Third Gen that had over 80,000 +p+ 9mm rds. through it. What was hard on handguns was the hot .40 S&W 155 gr. as loaded specifically by Rem. in the past for the BP. It was a real 'barn burner' and a superb manstopper. It was however hard to shoot well for the non-gun enthusiasts.

If the FBI was purely interested in better hard surface penetration they would have went with the .357 SIG which trumps all in that category.

Perhaps advances in 9mm ammo since the time of the Miami Shootout have been sufficient to make a return to the caliber justifiable. After all, it is a more controllable round than 40cal, and added capacity is not a bad idea.

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Stay protected my friends.

Yep. exactly.

I'm issued a Glock .40 at the agency I work for & perfectly content with it . In about a week, we are switching to Glock.45s. That is fine too.

My brother-in-law works for a federal agency and been carrying their issued Sig 9mm for years now. He travels worldwide regularly and his employer prefers the 9mm based on ammo availability.

I've worked a lot of shootings and have yet to see a fatality where 10 or 20 gr. of bullet weight either way made any difference to the person shot. I've never heard a medical examiner say that the guy would have survived if he'd been hit in the same spot with a 147 gr. instead of a 180 gr.

Either the bullet entered a vital area and damaged the internal organs sufficiently to end the fight.....or it didn't. There is no rhyme or reason sometimes.

I don't get this. What happened in 1900 or thereabouts?

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Been shooting various handguns since about 1980, mostly .38/.357, .45ACP and 9mm. Later added .44 Mag. A few years ago started shooting .44 Spec.

Have never shot a human being and hope never to be involved in any sort of incident where such a tragedy occurs. Have been shot at once while walking rounds one night in a shipyard as a unarmed security guard. The folks doing the shooting hit nothing but the building behind me and some dredging pipe. I don't remember being impressed with their marksmanship or their choice of firearms or caliber. I do remember my number one concern was to put as much distance between them and myself as possible and to get behind something solid. That incident was the reason I bought my first handgun.

I have used handguns to kill various game animals. I have been present when handguns have been used to kill game animals. Some were various deer that we had to track after someone wounded the animal. Shots have all been at close range... never more than ten yards. Head shots with .22 LR and .38 Special using plain Jane 158 gr. LRN have been immediately effective. Body shots with .38 Special and .357 Magnum using JHP's have been immediately effective. I've not been around anyone who ever used a larger caliber for backup. Most of the fellows with whom I hunt are just regular guys. They carry on their hip what is otherwise in the dash of the truck or on the nightstand.

I have a church member who hunts hogs the way some folks hunt bargains at yard sales. He is out in the woods w/ his dogs just about ever week. He has shot a pile of hogs. He uses a Ruger Mk. II w/ whatever .22 LR ammo he can find when he's got a hog in a trap. He also uses a S&W Victory .38 Special with 158 gr. LRN ammunition when chasing hogs w/ the dogs. He is a excellent shot. And he always shoots up close, like I said never more than maybe 10 yards away. In our area the hogs are not monsters. Occasionally you will see one that will be over 200 lbs., but mostly they are not over 200lb. If you can keep us with him in the woods, it's a real show when he pulls that gun and starts shooting. When he pulls that pistol you can bet something is about to go down for the count. If he has to shoot more than once, its a rarity.

I typically carry a M-1 Garand loaded with a clip of whatever .30-06 ammo I have on hand. On time in a pinch I had to use M-2 ball. Amazing how effective that stuff is on hogs. Whatever got shot dropped like a sack of potatoes. He thinks I am using to much gun. I think if I could shoot under pressure the way he can, I'd probably just carry a B.B. pistol. However, given that I am just a normal shooter, I figure I need something a mite bit bigger. So I carry something a little bit bigger... usually a .357 Magnum or a .44 Special. I've even been known to carry a .45 ACP. They all work just fine. My church member still thinks I'm overdoing things. Ah well, we all have our opinions about what guns/calibers to use. JMHO. Sincerely. brucev.

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<><

But as far as I know, none of the Very Special Agents have died from starvation....

I've been a fan of the 9x19 for quite a few years, and my favorite semi-auto carry-gun is a Springfield Armory EMP in that caliber, a scaled down 1911. Excellent gun. I tend to be more of a revolver guy, however, so generally carry some form of 38/357. I also keep a Beretta 92FS in my desk at work. I've never felt underarmed, but so far I haven't had to shoot anyone, thankfully!

I never cared much for the 40, although did use the caliber fairly extensively when shooting IPSC Limited. I love the old 45ACP, but don't carry my 45s, too big and bulky.

Great point. The National Park Service has done it since the early 90's with the Sig P series with great success. A majority of officers are not shooters so they choose the 228 or 9 in 9mm and have become better shooters, or at least can qualify. It is too bad more agencies don't do this.

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Cheers, Charles
SWCA #2442

FBI Agents currently have the option of a Glock in 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. Some SIGs still grandfathered in; also in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP.

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No good deed goes unpunished.