Yellow granules and stuck casings with S&W 500 and Magtech 500L

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sw500newb

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Dear S&W Forum people,

I am a new S&W 500 owner. I have shot around 200 rounds of Magtech 500A and 500B.

Recently I purchased quite many boxes of Magtech 500L which is a little lighter magnum load (don't ask why I got them).

When I visited the range today, I immediately ran into issues with the 500L cartridges.

After shooting few rounds I noticed that one of the cases was stuck into the cylinder. Very tight. I could not get it out even with some force. I continue shooting with the rest of the chambers, but again, 2 more cases got stuck in the cylinder.

I had one box of 500A with me, and I shot that using the 2 free chambers and had no issues. I then tried 500L again from a different box, and managed to shoot 15 rounds or so, until I got bad round (?) again. Now that I was expecting this to happen, I noticed that the recoil and sound is very different for 500L which shoots normally, and 500L which ends up stuck in the chamber.

I ended up with all 5 chambes with stuck casing. When I got home, I tapped the casings from the front side of the cylinder (doh) and managed to get them out, but I had to use some force.

There was yellowish powder (unburnt powder?) all over the barrel, chambers and in the casings.

magtech.500l.jpg


Image can be found from here:
http://forums.kaulaparta.com/media/33017/magtech.500l.jpg

Can you please help me understand what is going on here,what could be the issue and if I should avoid shooting the rest of the 500L and could this be a faulty batch?

Gun is not modified in any way, kept clean and I only shoot factory loads (500A, 500B before these issues with 500L)
 
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I don't load the .500, but the yellow granules are powder. They look to be burnt, or at least scorched like the load did not have enough pressure to completely burn all the powder. The carbon on the outside of the brass usually is caused by low pressure.

Cases stick in the cylinders because of rough chamber finish, dirty chambers, high pressure, or bad brass. From your description of your range session, I'd bet bad brass.
 
Welcome to the forum.
Although I own a 500, I'm by no means an expert but it sounds as if you've located the problem, as being the "L" ammo.
If you reload, you might pull that ammo and reload it or sell/swap it off, etc.
I'd hate to knowingly pass faulty ammo to someone without advising them but it might work fine in their gun. If you don't reload and can salvage the components, you might contact magtech and see if they would replace it or at least advise them of the batch # and problems you're having.
 
I've never loaded or shot those mammoths but I'd guess low pressure even though I bet your wrist disagrees.

If you're a DYI I'd try polishing the throats.
 
I'm sorry, but you kept shooting the ammo until you had cases stuck in all chambers? WHY? If you had problems with the ammo, why would you risk damage, or worse, to you or your firearm?

Just wondering?
 
MyDads38 said:
I'm sorry, but you kept shooting the ammo until you had cases stuck in all chambers? WHY? If you had problems with the ammo, why would you risk damage, or worse, to you or your firearm?

Just wondering?
Click to expand...

I thought it was a combination of cold weather and new gun. I did not notice that some rounds fire "wrong" until the very last rounds, when I was paying more attention to the sound and recoil.
 
Bad ammo...........
Call or E-mail the company and they should work things out.

Either a bad lot or a loading error on their behalf that should be corrected.
Todays powder should work in cold or hot temperature by the companies that put out ammo.

That is way too much "Crud" to be left behind to cause trouble in a weapon. That really needs to be fixed.........

Good luck.
 
This issue is moving forward faster than I expected.

The factory had contacted the local distributor and they contacted me by email earlier and by phone today.

They want the rest of the cartridges for investigation and offered to replace them with the A/B/D cartridges.

Person who contacted me was very polite, professional and customer-centric, excellent customer service!
 
sw500newb said:
This issue is moving forward faster than I expected.

The factory had contacted the local distributor and they contacted me by email earlier and by phone today.

They want the rest of the cartridges for investigation and offered to replace them with the A/B/D cartridges.

Person who contacted me was very polite, professional and customer-centric, excellent customer service!
Click to expand...

Well Kudos to Magtech then!! Let us know the outcome.
 
sw500newb said:
They want the rest of the cartridges for investigation and offered to replace them with the A/B/D cartridges.
Click to expand...

Sounds, & looks, like they were light loads of slow powder that didn't get good primer ignition. Lucky you didn't get a squib.

Make sure you let us know if they make good on their offer. I had a company offer one thing & then do nothing.

.
 
I have seen this before. I think it is caused with a certain magnum powder that requires a magnum primer with the wrong primer.
 
Insufficient pressure to seal the brass (expand) allowing gas and unburnt powder to get between the cylinder and brass.

Appears the factory failed to load them correctly.

Good call to get the manufacture involved as opposed to let us arm chair quarterbacks solve it.

Note: Shooting with dirty cylinders creates similar problem.

I have seen this before. I think it is caused with a certain magnum powder that requires a magnum primer with the wrong primer.
Click to expand...

As far as this being a primer issue is questionable in this case. It looks like a stick powder was used not a "magnum" powder. Most magnum powders come with a warning not to use less than 90% of the available case volume - some reloaders confuse this with max published load data. These powders are pressure dependent and should be avoided when trying to create reduced recoil loads, use the right powder for the job.
As far as magnum powders requiring magnum powders also internet myth. You can look at manufactures data for H110/W296 and see numerous example of standard primers being used. If careful observation is used you will see magnum primers applied when case volumes are extremely large - typically greater than 65 grains of water case volume.

Let use know what the manufacture determines please.


Good luck and be safe
Ruggy
 
ruggyh said:
Insufficient pressure to seal the brass (expand) allowing gas and unburnt powder to get between the cylinder and brass.

Appears the factory failed to load them correctly.

Good call to get the manufacture involved as opposed to let us arm chair quarterbacks solve it.

Note: Shooting with dirty cylinders creates similar problem.



As far as this being a primer issue is questionable in this case. It looks like a stick powder was used not a "magnum" powder. Most magnum powders come with a warning not to use less than 90% of the available case volume - some reloaders confuse this with max published load data. These powders are pressure dependent and should be avoided when trying to create reduced recoil loads, use the right powder for the job.
As far as magnum powders requiring magnum powders also internet myth. You can look at manufactures data for H110/W296 and see numerous example of standard primers being used. If careful observation is used you will see magnum primers applied when case volumes are extremely large - typically greater than 65 grains of water case volume.

Let use know what the manufacture determines please.


Good luck and be safe
Ruggy
Click to expand...

Yup, to many internet commandos think H-110/W296 "HAVE" to have a Magnum primer and it just isn't the case!
 
Looking at the photos, it looks like something in the neighborhood of 296 or h110. Those powders require a high loading density in order to burn efficiently. In other words, the case needs to be as full as possible. Even with a full case, there would be some residual powder remaining. The amount that you have and the condition of the cases tells me that these rounds did not have a full charge. Even without a magnum primer I don't believe you would have had this problem had the rounds contained a full charge. As far as dangerous pressures and damage to your gun, and I'm sure that there are those here who won't agree with this, but it would be very unlikely that an x frame 500 cylinder would burst under these conditions. Of course something isn't right and I would not use any more of those cartridges. The 500 is a cool round but it has a lot of space inside and that requires a little more attention when loading it.
 
cmj8591 said:
Looking at the photos, it looks like something in the neighborhood of 296 or h110. Those powders require a high loading density in order to burn efficiently.
Click to expand...

Doesn't look anything like improperly/unburnt H110/W296
which clump in light brown/tan.

I don't believe a major manufacture would make the that mistake.
As state previously it looks like a stick powder, typically H335 leaves a similar yellow/yellowish unburnt residue but that is just a guess as I have only used a handful in the 500.

If hand loaders a looking for a reduced recoil load I would suggest Trail Boss or Tin Star.
 
I can't speak for Magtech, but most commercial ammo manufacturers don't generally use canister grade powders. They determine what burn rate they need for the particular specifications they want to meet and the powder is formulated to provide that rate. To call the unburnt powder in those photos 296 or 110 is really just a gross generalization. The fact is that the powder in those rounds, not withstanding it's appearance, may not be anywhere near the burning rate of 296 or 110. It LOOKS LIKE unburnt 296 but it could, in fact, be anything. And, as far as the behavior of those particular rounds is concerned, it LOOKS LIKE there was an undercharge of slow burning powder. At least in my experience. But the fact is it could be something else. And as far as a major manufacturer making a charging mistake, it happens more frequently than anyone wants to admit.
 
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A.O. said:
You want to elaborate on that?
Click to expand...

Hello --A guy at the range was working up a target load for a 44 mag & was using Vihtavuori 3n37. Bullet was printing good then a dud. Bullet was stuck in the barrel from the primer. He though he had missed a powder charge. He tapped the bullet back down with a wood dowel which was easy enough --removed it & disassembled and the powder was still in the case. The standard primer barely moved the bullet but did not ignite the powder. The powder had a yellow tint. He finished the 5 left without a problem. He decided a mag primer would solve the problem. I haven't gotten the results of his retesting. That is all I know. I just happened to be there. :) I spoke with him again & the powder was on the light side as he was building up a load.
 
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