seeking feedback on what people feel is the 'best' non +p defense load for use in a
S & W 642 or other lightweight snubbies and why...thanks

I have struggled with this question for some time. Like you, I have no desire to split the frame under the barrel on my 642 like many others have done shooting "hotter" ammunition than needed.

I routinely shoot non +p 130 full metal case rounds for practice. With the full metal case, I escape the leading problem and the hours of cleaning associated with them.

I arrived at the following ammunition after quite some time in the ammo isle and I like them.



It is a Winchester 130 grn JHP that has a pretty aggressive hollow point configuration. It is marketed as a "Defend" round as part of the "Train & Defend" package. It generates a velocity of 900 at the muzzle and energy of 234 respectively.

Boxes of this ammo will be marked "T" for the 130 full metal case and "D" for the 130 hollow point as in the photo.

Both hit right at the point of aim on my 642 3 inch at 25 yards.

There will be many that desire a much faster, heavier bullet with supersonic speed, but I for one, would not choose to be shot with this round.

My 2 cents worth.

TAKE A LOOK AT THE BUFFALO BORE STANDARD PRESSURE LOAD…………..

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

If I'm relegated to standard pressure, I like Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain; it's performed acceptably well in tests. While I'm a big fan of Buffalo Bore's FBI load, it's standard pressure matches the velocity and poundage of everyone else's +P, so I wonder...

This questions been asked quite a few times, if you want to run a search for good reading.

Plenty of answers on here the past few months. Search and you will find them.

I do not load really hot ammunition in my lightweight revolvers. Diminishing returns - extra recoil, no benefit in stopping power. At the moment my 642 that rides with me every day is stoked with Hornady Critical Defense ammunition, 110 grains, FTX bullet. They make a "Lite" version that I think is for use in Model 12s - it's 90 grains - that will work, too. Remington has some new Ultimate Defense - Compact Handgun ammunition, also. I used it in my 642 and 638 - worked the same as the regular ammunition with more recoil. Much better for a steel snubby like a Model 10 or Model 15 2-inch or a 2.5-inch M 19 or M 686, for example. You'll never feel the recoil in one of those.

From relatively current Chronograph testing I found that the best NON +P round for the 38 Special is the Buffalo Bore 158 grain LSWCHP which out of my 2" Chief's did about 850 - 860 fps. The Remington and Winchester +P LSWCHP FBI loads which are actually rated +P, Chronographed to about the same velocity as the BB. So, either the BB is at the upper limit of pressure or the Remington & Winchester are at the lower end of the +P pressures. I suspect a bit of both. If you are hesitant to load rounds marked with the +P designation I'd definitely go with the BB # 20C, but from what I personally witnessed, the +P rated Rem's and Win's. are just about the same thing. Bottom line is all three will do the job and should not beat up your gun. The "Big Three" ammo Company's have really watered down their +P ammo according to my actual test test results.

I did NOT do any Ballistic Gel Block testing but there are many of them on Youtube should you care to watch. I much prefer 158 grain slugs out of a 38 Special and have always found them to shoot more to the point of aim than the lighter bullets do.

I also tested the Speer 135 grain short barrel GDHP which is +P rated, but did not have an exceptionally hard to handle recoil, did not seem like it was at the high end of pressure, and even though it is a lighter 135 grains has a very good reputation for getting the job done. Use them sparingly and you should be just fine. The velocity on the Gold Dots was just under the Buffalo Bore NON +P's so they are also a very viable choice and were specifically designed for short snub guns.

I always keep getting on my soapbox when this question arises, I personally dont want to be shot by anything 38 caliber. we go back and forth at my LGS with this argument I personally do not mind carrying a flat nose 158 grain SWC in any factory load or even a jacketed round 158 grain but the collateral damage comes into play with this also. The round was created in 1898 and has proven itself probably many many times that no matter what you shoot out of it with the right shot placement this round is lethal in any fashion or weight. Just my $.02.

Pete

If I were going to use a standard load in a .38 SPL snubby, I'd probably use a 158 gr SWC, with a hollow point if I could get them.

Not sure how much speed they would have, but there's plenty of people on the wrong of the grass from a 38 with lead bullets.

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John

I load 2 of my 3 J frame 38's with the Buffalo Bore® Std Pressure 158gr LSWCHCGC (#20C/20). For my new M&P BODYGUARD 38 I use the Winchester® Train & Defend 130gr ammunition 2K7 posted.

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David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

Reverse wadcutter

As others have stated I would go with a 158gr LSWC or LSWCHP whether +P or not. My personal load is the Federal 38G +P.

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BCCI Life Member #2068

Whatever load you can shoot quickly and accurately. Near hits don't count.
Mine is loaded with 148 grain hollow based target wadcutters. The reason being it is what I can shoot extremely accurately and quickly with. Shooting innocent bystanders is a no no. You want all the rounds into the bad guy.
Get a selection of ammo and go shooting, label each target , sit down and compare and go with the load that you shoot best. accuracy counts.
Gary

Decades ago, I remember hearing that the Atlanta Police were mandated to carry only wad cutters due to the politics of the time. They were hated by nearly all the officers because of their abysmal performance in "stopping" a bad guy. Given enough time they were deadly. More often, Police shootings began to involve large numbers of hits before the bad guy stopped what he was doing. More effective ammo soon followed.

Unless I had to fill the cylinder of a truly old revolver, I'd take a Gold Dot 135 +P or the Golden Saber 125 +P and shoot them sparingly. Then I would train with a standard pressure slug with the same weight.

Why does that Atlanta story sound like an urban legend? I'm sure HPs are more effective than wadcutters but, still, there is this:

The Nyclad 125 gr HP has a good reputation. Dead soft lead with a coating to eliminate lead fouling. 770 fps from a 2 inch. Hard to find right now.

Buffalo Bore also has a standard pressure 125 gr JHP load and a 150 grain hard cast wadcutter load.

Chore Boy all copper scouring pad material wrapped around a bore brush for a tight fit in the bore will easily remove leading.

REMEMBER............. the purpose of shooting an attacker is not necessarily to kill them, but to STOP them from doing any further harm to anybody else. Almost all bullets and calibers can kill people, but a person dying 6 hours or 2 days later is useless if they have the wherewithal to continue their act of harming innocent victims.

This is why "stopping power" does not always equate to killing power.

I carry the standard pressure Buffalo Bore 158 grain LSWCHP-GC (gas check) in a 2" J-frame, and load my 4" K-frame house gun with it. It seems most closely to approximate the older Remington FBI load, which has a decades-long record of effectiveness and which I carried for years.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Hornady and possibly others make loads designed for snubbies I do not know if they are +p but developed good velocity in a snubby


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Buffalo Bore Standard Pressure failure, from a reliable source:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvVNtKicux4

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Loyalty Above All.. but Honor

Interested in this thread as I picked up a M38 just yesterday, was on layaway Standard pressure loads only.

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Sure you did

Speaking of the awesome Model 38, I use Buffalo Bore standard pressure in mine.

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I love tnoutdoors9, but that test is a single data point, and I have yet to find any major, popular defense load that hasn't had at least one failure in the FBI protocols or similar tests. And in this case, "failure" means it penetrated 1" past protocol numbers; I can live with that in a good shoot.

For my non .357 mag airweight snubs I use hard cast 148 wadcutters for non +p. They're loaded hotter than hbwc. I'm not going to put my loadings down but they are similar to a "standard" 158 swc load from the old days with unique and seated to the same depth inside the case.

Me personally, I just don't trust hollow points to have the speed necessary to expand out of a snub. Especially at non +p. This is my opinion though and I respect every one's own opinion to feel comfortable with what they carry. I believe a properly expanded and deep penetrating hollow point is better than a wadcutter of course. But I also feel a deep penetrating hard cast wadcutter is better than a fmj (like a failed to open hollow point acts).

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Jim

Wadcutter loaded at 800 fps in the gun and either Federal or Remmington standard LSW for my reload!

The Cult Favority of many years is the 125 Nyclad, but the availability is spotty at best. Search out a box , and use sparingly for actual carry.

I haven't used any yet , the above mentioned Win " Defend " seems very promising in gel testing I've read, and probably as good as any of the other commonly available non +P jhps .

Old School aproach #1 - aka my feelings. 5 rds of +P 158 LHP to test POI , and 5rd for actual carry.( Or 135 Gold Dot if inclined).

Old School aproach #2 - a signifigent double digit percentage of old timers discount the idea of anything expanding from a 2in , and , and use a 158 std vel swc , and rely on control and penetration. Similar school of thought as carrying fmj in a .380 . I don't totally buy into this , but, I won't expend much effort to debate any out of it.

The rest of the question is , are you seeking std pressure only to be kind to the gun , or is it deliberate to moderate the recoil in a light gun for better control ? If the later , somthing like the Buffalo Bore might be std pressure per se , but will have recoil similar to the conventional +P versions.

thanks all...some of the loads mentioned are already in my stash, but getting new input is helpful; my stash...Federal Nyclad 125gr (can't find anymore), Hornady Critical Defense Lite (leftover from a derringer I had for a short while), Speer Gold Dot 135gr +p (newest addition), Remington lswchp 158gr +p (had a good while, but dislike lead fouling);

leaning toward the Hornady Critical Defense 110gr more than the new Winchester Defend 130gr but I'll research both some more before choosing...

Penn Bullets

Custom, hardcast 148 gr double ended wad cutter.

5 gr or more of Unique.

It's all about the meplat.