Subsonic, higher grain load for .357?

[DavyKOTWF]

I'm thinking saving my ears in a home defense scenario, and no over penetration through mine and the neighbors drywall, yet around 400 ft lb energy ATM (thus as heavy a bullet as possible)

So if one goes far enough down on the fps in .357 mag, you're just talking about +P right?

Any factory, store bought ammo that has perhaps 158 grain or higher, yet 1000 fps or less? Closest I've found is Buff. Bore in 38 special +P, 1000 fps, 351 ft lbs ATM. Can anyone beat this, with all these parameters?

Thanks for any help. (I'm thinking 1000 fps won't hurt my ears in doors? being speed of sound is around 1120 fps) (and of course some kind of fast expanding hollow point to avoid the neighbors drywall)

And does anyone have any opinions on Grizzly ammo? pro or con?

[jkhouw1]

1000 fps out of a 4" 357 indoors will leave your ears ringing for quite a while.
I shoot a lot of 158gr 357 at 1050 and quiet its not.

[DavyKOTWF]

Ok thank JK, so I might have to go down to 900 fps?

edit: am finding as I search the net, that yes, 900 fps or less is the trick.

[Camster]

Any round discharged inside without ear protection will cause hearing damage,even a .22.I wouldn't count on drywall stopping a .22,never mind a .38..

[colt_saa]

Forget about going through all this work to save your ears.

If in the extremely unlikely event that you do need to discharge a firearm to save you or those around you from great bodily harm or death, use the most effective ammunition available for your firearm that you can comfortably handle.

A little hearing loss would be a small price to pay as long as you and those with you continue to go on living

Yes, I have personally discharged multiple full Magnum 357s in a ~10'x12' bedroom and I have also discharged multiple 45ACP+Ps in the closed passenger compartment of an Dodge K-car all without putting on hearing protection first.

[DavyKOTWF]

I prefer to have my cake and eat it too in an unlikely event.
How's your hearing ColtSaa?
See the different experiences? Camster says ANY round will cause damage even a .22 and ColtSaa says he shoots .357 mags indoors without damage.

Hear's a good quote from another forum:

"Was at an indoor range and stupidly dropped my ears since I had the range to myself. Forgot to put them back on and fired a Federal 357B from a S&W snub which is a pretty hot 125gr round. Immediately after firing my first reaction was to cover my ears since it was pretty damn painful. The ringing was freaking unbearable, and for a month after I couldn't even take a shower or drive with the window down without earplugs as it was hell to my ears and made them hurt. For up to 6 months after the incident I was left with an extremely loud ringing in my left ear that drove me on the verge of insanity. After the first 6 months the ringing started to diminish in intensity but continued to ring. As I am typing this it is 10 months later and from time to time my left year will still ring, usually when I am really tired or drinking. Point is choose something quieter for home defense if you actually want to enjoy silence for the rest of your life and not be stuck with a permanent ring in your ear.

Quote:
You can't tell a BG hey wait til I have my hearing protection on before I shoot you.
Yeah but you can choose a quieter round. You can all chime in and say you would rather be deaf than dead, but untill you are stuck with a permanent ringing in your ear or have experienced long term ringing than you have no idea what kind of toll it takes on your day to day life. Fortunately I have no noticeable hearing loss, although I do suffer from slight high frequency hearing loss.

By the way I no longer own a .357 snub and never plan to use the round for carry or home defense. I will not subject my ears to that kind of torture ever again. A .38 special or 9mm will do me fine for home defense and carry."

For some of you who have don't have hearing loss (many of us do) here's something many people don't know about...the FIRST time you don't wear hearing protection and you have ringing in the ears, it WILL go away often, so you still have 100% or near 100% hearing. BUT...the 2nd time it happens (or 3rd) , you WILL get permanent damage and hearing loss. So just because you got away with it a time or two, don't get cocky and do it again, you WILL regret it for the rest of your life. IFFF it happens the first time, ringing in your ears but the hearing comes back, be VERY VERY PARTICULAR about hearing protection from then on.

[Camster]

Originally Posted by DavyKOTWF

I prefer to have my cake and eat it too in an unlikely event.
How's your hearing ColtSaa?
See the different experiences? Camster says ANY round will cause damage even a .22 and ColtSaa says he shoots .357 mags indoors without damage.

Hear's a good quote from another forum:

"Was at an indoor range and stupidly dropped my ears since I had the range to myself. Forgot to put them back on and fired a Federal 357B from a S&W snub which is a pretty hot 125gr round. Immediately after firing my first reaction was to cover my ears since it was pretty damn painful. The ringing was freaking unbearable, and for a month after I couldn't even take a shower or drive with the window down without earplugs as it was hell to my ears and made them hurt. For up to 6 months after the incident I was left with an extremely loud ringing in my left ear that drove me on the verge of insanity. After the first 6 months the ringing started to diminish in intensity but continued to ring. As I am typing this it is 10 months later and from time to time my left year will still ring, usually when I am really tired or drinking. Point is choose something quieter for home defense if you actually want to enjoy silence for the rest of your life and not be stuck with a permanent ring in your ear.

Quote:
You can't tell a BG hey wait til I have my hearing protection on before I shoot you.
Yeah but you can choose a quieter round. You can all chime in and say you would rather be deaf than dead, but untill you are stuck with a permanent ringing in your ear or have experienced long term ringing than you have no idea what kind of toll it takes on your day to day life. Fortunately I have no noticeable hearing loss, although I do suffer from slight high frequency hearing loss.

By the way I no longer own a .357 snub and never plan to use the round for carry or home defense. I will not subject my ears to that kind of torture ever again. A .38 special or 9mm will do me fine for home defense and carry."

For some of you who have don't have hearing loss (many of us do) here's something many people don't know about...the FIRST time you don't wear hearing protection and you have ringing in the ears, it WILL go away often, so you still have 100% or near 100% hearing. BUT...the 2nd time it happens (or 3rd) , you WILL get permanent damage and hearing loss. So just because you got away with it a time or two, don't get cocky and do it again, you WILL regret it for the rest of your life. IFFF it happens the first time, ringing in your ears but the hearing comes back, be VERY VERY PARTICULAR about hearing protection from then on.

Amen. signed,an old guy with tinnitus.

[bigwheelzip]

The SD rounds are made to expand at a specified velocity range. Too slow, and they can be removed from ballistic gel un-expanded. Too fast, and they fragment on impact, without sufficient penetration. That's why short barrel firearms often leave certain SD ammo un-expanded. The specified muzzle velocity for proper expansion is often only achieved from longer barrels found in service weapons, not short barrel concealed weapons.
If you purposely slow the round down, you may wind up with an un-expanded round, with the smaller diameter of an FMJ. Hardly an ideal choice when facing a threat.
I leave hearing protection on top of the safe. A better choice would be a silencer.

[Nevada Ed]

A minimum noise SD load in a 357 Magnum would be the.....
38 special +P FBI load if you need minimum flash and noise.

I have loaded a 158gr lead in a 357 case down to 976 fps and it is still loud outside.
The lowest fps was with Trail Boss at only 788 fps but you will not find this with factory ammo in a SD loading.

Lighter bullets just go too fast and will be above 1,000 fps in 4" or longer barrels.

[kraynky]

Originally Posted by Camster

Amen. signed,an old guy with tinnitus.

Ditto, just reading this thread made it come back. I think I am able to ignore it most of the time, until somebody mentions it, or I read about it. Truly sux.

Mine began back about 1981, when I had a brand new 1911 and BIL had a .38 snub. We went out blasting ammo without ear protection (young and dumb/ dumb and dumber). Had a constant loud buzzing in my head for nearly a week, could not hear the car radio at any level for 3 days. Been paying for it the rest of my days since too.

[colt_saa]

Originally Posted by DavyKOTWF

I prefer to have my cake and eat it too in an unlikely event.
How's your hearing ColtSaa?

If it were possible to have your cake and eat it too, the world would be a different place.

There is ZERO doubt in my mind that if I were carrying a 38 caliber projectile at subsonic velocity I would be Dead today.

Carry what you feel comfortable with, I value my life far above my hearing and I can hear you just fine.

[DavyKOTWF]

So the discussion herein and my research from this thread has made me decide. Ole Clint can keep his Blood Work .357 for SD, as cool as it is. I'll stick to .44 special and .40 S&W.

Heavy, big and slow, is the way to go. Thanks all for their input.

signed, STR (slight tinnitus recipient) ... the incident that did it was when I too was young, invincible, cocky and ignorant, and one shot from a .357 magnum

[THE PILGRIM]

A gun shot in a small room?
Loud, real loud.
Remember I posted that once my Buddy up in Kokomo discharged a Luger about 3 feet from my ears.
Loud! And if was only a 9mm!
How is my hearing?
Between guns, airplanes and that good old Rock and Roll, I'm surprised my hearing is as good as it is.
If I need to discharge a firearm in my home to defend myself,
I will let it fly!

[aurora40]

You'll probably need a heavier bullet. A 180gr at 1000 fps would hit your 400 ft-lbs criteria. I'm not sure velocity is really what causes the painful sound, though it probably correlates since it generally takes more powder to get more velocity, so the gasses are probably under more pressure when vented from the end of the barrel. You also mentioned penetration, but it may very well be that a slower and heavier bullet will penetrate more walls/etc than a faster and lighter one.

FWIW, Blazer Aluminum 357 pushes a 158gr bullet to 920 fps from my 4" revolver. That's about 300 ft-lbs though.

[jimbo728]

If you are more worried about your hearing than your life, get a crossbow.
Jim

[Nevada Ed]

If you want subsonic............
and you nee around 400 ft/lbs of energy

A 180 gr. bullet at 990 fps will put out 391 ft/lbs of ME.

However............over penetration may be a problem, unless the BG is standing in front of the refrigerator.

[muddocktor]

Davy, I can fully understand you wanting to keep trauma to your ears to a minimum. In my young days as a pre-teen and teen in the 60's, we didn't use hearing protection when shooting. That wasn't too bad with rifles, but when I got old enough to own a pistol in 1974 I promptly bought a 5" 27-2 (still got it too ) and we used to go out and shoot a couple hundred rounds off at a time and our ears would ring for days after. Between shooting pistols , rock concerts of the 70's and working on drilling rigs I now live with hearing loss and tinnitus. And I don't shoot even a 22 without hearing protection now, as I am trying to save the hearing I have from deteriorating further. But if I had to deal with a BG in my house, I will let him have however many 357 Mag rounds as needed and worry about my ears afterwards. I think that the 357 Mag is about the most effective caliber I have to use in a defense situation in my house and I won't compromise my defensive capability by loading inferior ammo. And while you might be able to download a 180 grain bullet to subsonic levels and keep decent kinetic energy, I would worry about over penetration with that bullet. If you are still worried about hearing, then pick another caliber, such as 45 ACP with some 230 grain or 9MM with 147 grain hp bullets.

BTW, my living room stash gun is a 3 1/2" 27-2 loaded with Fiocchi 158 grain JHP ammo. It's right by my chair, for "just in case".

[moxie]

Davy,

ALL revolvers are loud, regardless of caliber, bullet weight or velocity. Bringing the bullet speed below supersonic only removes the "crack" that happens when the bullet breaks the sound barrier. The noise of the powder exploding still is present, both from the barrel and barrel/cylinder gap. Even a silencer/suppressor won't eliminate the noise with a revolver.

Full-size autos in 9mm and .45acp are probably the quietest, relatively speaking, but still loud enough to cause ear damage, even outdoors.

[10mm_Shooter]

12g maybe loaded with Winchester SXZ 00B ? more of a boom than the loud crack of the pistols. You would still need to consider the over penetration those little .32 cal balls will go through a few layers of sheet rock easily but at <30 feet your still at a 12 inch pattern.(based on your choke)

[sodacan]

So if someone is trying to kill you, you're going to worry about the ringing in your ears? Exactly how many times are you expecting this to happen in your lifetime?

[Comrad]

Why not dip into the .38 spl arena, is the 200 gr still made?

PS. Don't discount the misery tinnitus can cause, I'm not talking about the run of the mill everyday tinnitus most people suffer with. I am talking about tea kettle sounding, never ending high pitch whistle forever.