38 spl vs 357 mag

[skier73]

Although I'm not new to firearms, I'm new to my S&W model 66 and the 357 magnum world. I've read in several places that for target shooting and plinking, 38 spl and 38+p are preferred over 357 rounds because of relative expense. The claim seems to be that buying 38 spl saves a bunch of cash.

Could someone point me to ammo supplier websites showing a significant disparity? Based on most of what I've been able to find so far the costs seem pretty similar. HSM, as just one example, lists a box of 50, 125 gr plated HP 38 spl rounds at $20.62. 125 gr plated HP 357 rounds list for $21.32 per 50 rounds. After I've bought 1000 rounds of 38 spl I've saved $14 over buying the same quantity of 357 rounds.

I'm guessing there are greater differences than I've been finding so far and really would appreciate help finding sources for those differences.

Thanks much!

[Jingles]

It's not the cost for me but the punishment, both on me and the gun. I typically shoot about 300 rounds a week; I have a lot more fun and am much more accurate when I shoot the majority in low-power .38 wadcutters.

[DocB]

Yup, hard to find but worth the search. In addition, they will eject better in a snub. You will think you are shooting a 22 with wad cutters. They actually make a pretty good self-defense load.

[Arik]

You're looking at one brand. Look at the price reletive to the caliber as a whole since yo man not always find that brand.

Going on SGAMMO I found about a $4 difference in brass case range ammo between the 38 and 357. $13.99 for a box of 50 38spl 158gr. $18.99 for 357

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[LoboGunLeather]

There are two very valid reasons for using .38 Special ammo for training, target shooting, and plinking:

1. Greatly reduced recoil, muzzle blast, and muzzle flash.
2. Greatly reduced stress on your revolver with the probability of a longer useful service life.

The Model 66 is built on the K-frame, originally known as the Military & Police Model which was chambered in .38 S&W, .38 Special, .32-20 and other cartridges dating from the 1890's to the 1930's. The .357 Magnum was introduced in the 1930's, originally offered in the larger N-frame revolvers which were capable of withstanding the increased pressures. The K-frame revolvers were not offered in .357 Magnum until about the 1960's, presumably following much testing of the steel alloys used to make sure the pressures could be safely accommodated. Even at that, many incidents have taken place over the past 50 years of experience with the K-frame .357's which have demonstrated that a steady diet of high-pressure .357 ammo can, at minimum, result in shortened revolver life, and at worst in damage to the revolver (such as cracks at the forcing cone or revolver frame.

Occasional use of .357 ammo for hunting or personal defense will probably never cause any problems in your Model 66, but I would recommend .38 Special ammo for the regular diet.

[Brasky]

Don't know about you but I pay $11 per 50 38 special remans and $13 per 50 of 357 mag remans. Shot many calibers from this vendor and only one bad primer in the thousands of rounds myself and friends have purchased! If I pay any more than that per round for either caliber it's because I'm looking for a specific load.

$11 vs $13 is only a $2 difference but it is a $40 difference in a 1000ct case. I also tend to buy a lot more 38s as my wife has a 637 she likes shooting.

A great hint in your search for ammo, search wikiarms or slickguns. You can see who has what and how much it costs

[DWalt]

If you reload, the only cost differential between .38S and .357 is the expense of a little more or different powder (assuming use of the same bullet). But most shooters would rather use .38S for recreational shooting to avoid the noise, blast, and recoil of the .357, not to mention the greater wear and tear on the revolver. Inanimate targets don't know the difference. Very rarely do I fire .357 ammo in any of my .357 revolvers.

[2ffat]

Originally Posted by Jingles

It's not the cost for me but the punishment, both on me and the gun. I typically shoot about 300 rounds a week; I have a lot more fun and am much more accurate when I shoot the majority in low-power .38 wadcutters.

Same here.

[wlewisiii]

I save my 38 special ammo for 38 special revolvers.

I prefer to load in 357 brass just to avoid the difficulty of cleaning up after using 38 specials in a magnum cylinder. Low power wadcutter puffballs for practice (Bullseye & Trail Boss) and mid-level (13.5 gr 2400/158 gr LSWCHP-GC) carry rounds. I have no need for fire breathing full power magnums at this time, though I might make some for my Rossi 92 (currently on layaway) when deer season rolls around.

[mrchuck]

The 357 magnum is my favorite caliber.
It was also my first issued caliber.
Yes it has a muzzle blast. You expect that in such a high velocity cartridge.
However, when discharged while on duty towards a perpetrator, it is really not noticed like when you are doing monthly qualifications.
I still have 3 full boxes of Winchester-Western yellow box, of these pointed silver pointed, metal piercing cartridges.
Loaded them up when doing Felony Car Stops.
It is said they are worth 100 dollars a box these days.
Also, for practice, even 38 Special wad-cutters are fun to shoot.
So, now you know.
Go shoot some 38 spcl wad-cutters, and the load in some 357 Magnum cartridges and shoot them.
It will truly put a smile on your face.
Just thinking about them now,,,,well,,it put a smile on my face just typing about them. Sooo Thanks to you!

[Texas Star]

First, the .357 is not a "range cartridge" for casual target shooting. It was meant to shoot live things that might do you harm or which you wanted to eat.

Great on coyotes or jackrabbits, and okay for deer at reasonable range and careful bullet placement. Will kill bears.

Too hard on guns for frequent range use. You can even wear out a Ruger GP-100 if you shoot it enough with full loads. A K-frame S&W should only be shot maybe 15% of the time with .357 ammo. That's the word from Bill Jordan, whose concept it was, and when it came out, the very hot 125 grain loads were still years in the future.

Bill told me that in person, and he knew the Combat Magnum as well as anyone. I do think the stainless ones resist throat erosion better than the blued M-19's do. But they were not intended for full time use with .357 ammo. For that, get a L or N-frame S&W or a Ruger.

[BUFF]

Don't be too quick to label the Model 66 as fragile. I carried a 6 inch Model 66 for the first 10 years of my career. The department had it's own range, not far from where I lived. I shot at least once a month, at least 50 rounds of .357 each trip, most of that was 125 grain JHP, about a third of it factory and the rest a handload using either 2400 or W-296 and a 125 grain JHP, usually Sierra, that duplicated factory ammo's velocity. Many .38 Specials as well, as that was the issue round and we could have a box every month. I had (and have) an identical gun for a spare, and shot it often enough to stay qualified with it, but the vast majority of shooting was with the first one. That way, I always had a clean one for work.

How much shooting was that? Well, 12 times 50 times 10... carry the 2... equals a whole lot.

Yes the gun got a little looser, but never wore enough to need any replacement parts and our armorer was a fussy *******.

That being said, I don't plink with full power Magnums in any caliber any more and haven't shot a .357 in at least 5 years, I think. It's a great all-around caliber and the M-66 is a most useful gun, but I plink mostly with non-magnum .44 and .45 now, being an old man and delicate and all that.

Shoot whatever you can find, want and can afford.

[rwsmith]

Originally Posted by wlewisiii

I save my 38 special ammo for 38 special revolvers.

I prefer to load in 357 brass just to avoid the difficulty of cleaning up after using 38 specials in a magnum cylinder. Low power wadcutter puffballs for practice (Bullseye & Trail Boss) and mid-level (13.5 gr 2400/158 gr LSWCHP-GC) carry rounds. I have no need for fire breathing full power magnums at this time, though I might make some for my Rossi 92 (currently on layaway) when deer season rolls around.

The loads that I use for home defense are low end .357 because at close range in close quarters I see no need to blow our eardrums out with a full magnum load.

[rwsmith]

Originally Posted by Texas Star

First, the .357 is not a "range cartridge" for casual target shooting. It was meant to shoot live things that might do you harm or which you wanted to eat.

Great on coyotes or jackrabbits, and okay for deer at reasonable range and careful bullet placement. Will kill bears.

Too hard on guns for frequent range use. You can even wear out a Ruger GP-100 if you shoot it enough with full loads. A K-frame S&W should only be shot maybe 15% of the time with .357 ammo. That's the word from Bill Jordan, whose concept it was, and when it came out, the very hot 125 grain loads were still years in the future.

Bill told me that in person, and he knew the Combat Magnum as well as anyone. I do think the stainless ones resist throat erosion better than the blued M-19's do. But they were not intended for full time use with .357 ammo. For that, get a L or N-frame S&W or a Ruger.

When I go to the range I shoot a pile of target .38 loads in my 686. Then a smaller pile of 'standard' .357 rounds, then a few cylinders of near max. It's all in fun and it shoots great under all circumstances. I shoot exclusively targets nowadays, I don't hunt any more, but I love the .357 for it's extreme versatility and available power if I choose to call on it.

[skier73]

Thanks to everyone - great advice, especially about wear and tear on the weapon and shooter. :-)

[Nevada Ed]

When you do find a place for ammo...........

you might get a box of 110 and 125gr standard ammo or +P
if that is all they have.............. and

a box of lead 148 and 158gr bullets at standard speed, to see what your weapon likes for target shooting and plinking.

Have fun.

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by BUFF

Don't be too quick to label the Model 66 as fragile. I carried a 6 inch Model 66 for the first 10 years of my career. The department had it's own range, not far from where I lived. I shot at least once a month, at least 50 rounds of .357 each trip, most of that was 125 grain JHP, about a third of it factory and the rest a handload using either 2400 or W-296 and a 125 grain JHP, usually Sierra, that duplicated factory ammo's velocity. Many .38 Specials as well, as that was the issue round and we could have a box every month. I had (and have) an identical gun for a spare, and shot it often enough to stay qualified with it, but the vast majority of shooting was with the first one. That way, I always had a clean one for work.

How much shooting was that? Well, 12 times 50 times 10... carry the 2... equals a whole lot.

Yes the gun got a little looser, but never wore enough to need any replacement parts and our armorer was a fussy *******.

That being said, I don't plink with full power Magnums in any caliber any more and haven't shot a .357 in at least 5 years, I think. It's a great all-around caliber and the M-66 is a most useful gun, but I plink mostly with non-magnum .44 and .45 now, being an old man and delicate and all that.

Shoot whatever you can find, want and can afford.

That's only 6,000 rounds, and you spread it out over a ten year span.

Some people shoot that in a year or less and keep going. They're the ones who may see some looseness in the gun or timing problems or barrel throat erosion. Cylinder endshake is pretty likely in heavy use, and I've seen that in many used K-frame Magnums.

I'm glad to know that your gun held up so well.

[BUFF]

6,000 was a pretty minimal estimate, it easily could have been double that in Magnums alone. And, spreading the shooting out over time doesn't matter, a gun doesn't "rest" and tighten up between shooting sessions. Considering how people write about 125 grain .357's, I guess I was lucky the gun didn't split itself up into 489 equally-sized pieces.

The only major handgun failure I ever experienced was a split forcing cone on a Colt Python that broke during it's first outing and 100 rounds, shooting 158 grain Federal .357's, and Python barrels aren't considered to be weak.

I am just saying, the K frame .357's aren't necessarily doomed to die from split forcing cones. And erosion of the forcing cone and lead rifling will occur equally regardless of whether it's a K, L or N frame, or a Ruger Blackhawk, or a Colt Python or Trooper, as the hot gasses and powder particles impact primarily the interior of the barrel. I've examined range rental .357 Magnums that had the rifling eroded completely away for well over an inch beyond where the rifling began when the gun was new. With the exception of wear to the rear of the barrel, most high mileage revolvers can be put back into great shape with the replacement and/or adjustment of a few relatively inexpensive parts. Guns with sprung frames and stretched topstraps practically always got that way from handloads loaded well above factory ammo standards.

[BB57]

Originally Posted by DWalt

If you reload, the only cost differential between .38S and .357 is the expense of a little more or different powder (assuming use of the same bullet).../

In my experience .357 Magnum brass is normally twice as expensive as .38 Special brass, whether you buy it lots of 100, 500 or 1000. It doesn't make any sense from a materials used perspective, but it's apparently a supply and demand issue.

Given the higher operating pressures, .357 Magnum doesn't last as long either - unless you load it down to .38 Special velocities, and then you just as well be shooting .38 Special.

[BB57]

Originally Posted by BUFF

6,000 was a pretty minimal estimate, it easily could have been double that in Magnums alone. And, spreading the shooting out over time doesn't matter, a gun doesn't "rest" and tighten up between shooting sessions. Considering how people write about 125 grain .357's..../

/....I am just saying, the K frame .357's aren't necessarily doomed to die from split forcing cones. And erosion of the forcing cone and lead rifling will occur equally regardless of whether it's a K, L or N frame, or a Ruger Blackhawk, or a Colt Python or Trooper, as the hot gasses and powder particles impact primarily the interior of the barrel. I've examined range rental .357 Magnums that had the rifling eroded completely away for well over an inch beyond where the rifling began when the gun was new. With the exception of wear to the rear of the barrel, most high mileage revolvers can be put back into great shape with the replacement and/or adjustment of a few relatively inexpensive parts. Guns with sprung frames and stretched topstraps practically always got that way from handloads loaded well above factory ammo standards.

I agree, there are two separate issues involved.

First, there is the structural changes in the metal that can occur when it's over stressed.

Steel is different than aluminum. Aluminum has a fatigue life and starts to fatigue with every pressure cycle. This is the quality that limits the life of aluminum frame handguns, even with standard pressure ammo.

Steel on the other hand doesn't necessarily have a fatigue life provided the pressure/stress loads don't push it past its fatigue limit. If the fatigue limit isn't exceeded, it can withstand essentially unlimited load/pressure cycles.

However, every time the fatigue limit is exceeded you are chipping away at its fatigue life and it will eventually fail due to fatigue. This is the quality that matters in high round count applications.

That's separate from exceeding the yield limit. Steel has an elastic limit and if you remain under that limit the steel will temporarily deform under stress or pressure but return to its original dimensions. However if the yield limit is exceeded, some percentage of that deformation will be permanent. That's the operative element when someone permanently stretches the fame do to an overly enthusiastic hand load.

Second there is the erosion that occurs from hot gasses eroding the steel.

I'm one of the folks who also doesn't buy the "125 gr .357 Magnum ammo is bad for a K-frame". Well...sort of. I don't agree that the issue is the 125 gr bullet.

The theory is that the short bullet allows gas to pass the bullet before it reaches the forcing cone. That gas then pre-heats the forcing cone so that it is more susceptible to damage when the bullet impacts the forcing cone. Anyone who has every read a thermodynamics text book will probably agree that's total hogwash. Yes...some gas may arrive at the forcing cone milliseconds before the bullet, but there's not enough time available for any significant heat transfer to occur.

So why does the 125 gr bullet get the blame? Mostly because the 125 gr load became popular with police departments about the same time that police departments started getting sued for under training police officers by using .38 Special for training and carrying .357 Magnum for duty use.

That was exactly how the Model 19 was designed to be used, but in the wake of these lawsuits departments switched to training with .357 Magnum exclusively, and a small percentage of Model 19s experienced cracked forcing cones.

The Model 19 isn't unique in this regard, but it has a flat milled in the bottom of the barrel under the forcing none to provide clearance for the crane. This results in the forcing cone being thiner in that area. That thinner section at the 6 o'clock location on the barrel is more susceptible to cracking - IF - it also has throat erosion, as the V shaped cuts from throat erosion create a stress riser and the thinner metal at the 6 o'clock location is more prone to cracking.

Consequently, the culprit is forcing cone erosion, and what causes forcing cone erosion isn't short bullets, but rather large charges of slow burning colloidal ball powders (like H110/Win 296) and to a lesser extent, flattened spherical powders like 2400.

Lighter bullets can use larger charges of these powders than heavier bullets so the end result is larger amounts of partially burned and abrasive powder flowing through the forcing cone along with the hot gasses.

In that regard, 125 gr bullets are the "sweet spot" for large charges of powders like 296. Max loads are around 16 grains of 296 with a 158 gr a bullet compared to about 20 grains for the 125 gr bullet - a 25% greater charge, with a commensurate increase in erosion. 110 gr bullets on the other hand don't normally use a slow powder like 296, so the 125 gr load gets left holding the bag when it comes to maximum erosion potential.

What gets left out is that a .357 Magnum 125 gr load doesn't necessarily have to use a colloidal ball powder. The slightly faster burning spherical powders may be a bit less egregious when it comes to erosion (2400, AA9, AA7, etc),and you'll only be giving up about 100 fps with a 125 gr bullet in a 6"-8" barrel, and you'll only be giving up about 50 fps in a 6"-8" barrel with a 158 gr bullet.

However, you've also got the option of using a flake powder like Red Dot, Bullseye or Unique with 125 gr bullets. Red Dot and Bullseye are a bit limiting, and they'll be about 100 fps behind Unique - but Unique will actually produce higher velocities in a 2" to 4" barrel with a 125 gr bullet than a slow during powder like 296, and it will do it with about half the charge weight.

Yeah...I know, everyone says that slow during powders produce the greatest velocities regardless of barrel length. The problem is that I've ben chrongraphing loads for years and I've never had a max load of 296 outshoot a max load of Unique in short barreled revolver. Apparently my chronograph can read and thus has missed all this gun rag and internet "wisdom" over the years.

----

The short story is that I shoot the much feared 125 gr .357 Mag loads a lot - but using Unique or similar powders, and have not had any issues, all while getting more velocity and no issues with throat erosion.

All y'all can shoot whatever you want.

[ArchAngelCD]

I didn't read all the posts, some are very long. The price difference between 38's and 357's may not be great now but back before 2008 the differences were noticeable. A box of .38 Special would run you between $6 and $7. A box of .357 Magnum could be twice that.