I'm the old school type as well preferring the time tested Winchester Silver-Tips.

Without going into long details. As a jurist on a Grand Jury we sent an assault indictment forward. My no vote was not enough. Bullet went through bad guy and stopped in the woman behind him. Shooting of the bad guy ruled by court as justifiable. The law here in Arizona and likely everywhere holds the shooter responsible for stray bullets. Since hearing the details. I worry more about over penetration.

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Dave

And I will heartily agree with your sentiment.

Regarding penetration in ballistic gelatin, the FBI standard is 12 to 18 inches. The reason for the 18 inch maximum is to limit over-penetration and the risk to innocents standing behind the BG. The FBI tests show 158 grain lead bullets from a 3" barrel .38 Special revolver to penetrate 15" in gelatin covered by heavy clothing. And that is nearly ideal to ensure a well-placed shot will penetrate to reach vital organs and stop the fight with lessened risk to bystanders.

i think this obsession with velocity n expansion is a boy thing.
my gun likes midrange wad cutters best. i shoot midrange wad cutters best.
i practice with midrange wadcutters .
they are all i buy.
they are all i need.

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susie

Not me Susie. I've got the Buffalo Bore, Speer Short Barrel, Critical defense, Corbon PDX, and Underwood Gold Dot. I'm going to load them all (EDIT one of each)and keep shooting until one works.

''until one works'' how?

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susie

Stops the threat. (I should have written "load one of each").

Hornady Critical Defense for my snubby

but you won't know that til you shoot a threat right?
how can you tell if one works otherwise?
i dunno. i just think 147 grs is a huge chunk of metal.
i've been working at point shooting for the last 6 months.
i wonder if the speed of getting a shot off point shooting might be more important than the bullet?.

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susie

Mixing ammo in a cylinder or a magazine sounds impressive, but it can be detrimental. Different bullet weights, in concert with varying velocities, means varying points of impact. Considering that I am responsible for each round I fire, I want to know for certain where my rounds print.

While the power of the round has a significant role in incapacitating a threat, you need to connect! A near miss with a 44 Magnum means very little, and a hit from a less powerful round such as a 38 Special wadcutter or a 22 Short is more effective. Shot placement is critical. What has to be kept in mind is that we should use whatever round that we can consistently deliver accurately.

Five well placed 38 Special wadcutters that hit center of mass are always going to be more effective at incapacitating/neutralizing a threat than six near misses with a 44 Magnum.

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Judge control not gun control!

great point.....

It ain't your marksmanship you oughta be worried about. Were I you, I'd me more worried about the marksmanship of a bad guy who's shooting at you. That's why remaining stationary while exemplifying your marksmanship skills might leave you face down in an alley.

Gunfighting survival rule #1: Don't get in one
Gunfighting survival rule #2: Don't get shot

Hornady® Critical Defense® 38 Special 110gr FTX™ Standard Pressure #90310 in my S&W® M&P BODYGUARD®38 Crimson Trace® Integral Laser (#10062). Low recoil and very accurate. Prints EXACTLY to POA out to 15yds.

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David
CW3 USA (Ret) 1968-1990

"The best way to win a gunfight is just don't show up." Wyatt Earp

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In Omnia Paratus

Amen. That said, sometimes we are unlucky.

I like a nice 158 gr gas checked LSWCHP - Buffalo Bore +P for .38 Special and 13.5 gr of 2400 behind the same Rimrock bullet in a Magnum.

i gotta agree with ed.
it sometimes seems to me people worry about capacity n type of rounds to the exclusion of practicing.
getting more range time has to be more important than type of ammo.
if i actually thot i'd be in a gunfight, i'd do what any sane person would do.
i'd mortgage the house n buy ammo by the pallet.
i'd practice everyday until my hand was too tired to hold the gun.
after a couple years of that, some terrorist with a semi auto rifle wouldn't have a chance.

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susie

If it ain't broke, don't fit it. The FBI load demonstrated:


As you guys have guessed by now, I'm of the opinion that heavier is better. I'm a huge fan of momentum. I am not a fan of light for caliber bullets. Even when I carry a .357 Mag for bipedal self-defense, my gun is loaded with W-W .38 Special LSWCHP +P. I'm also good with .38 Special LSWC +P. I want penetration. I never rely upon any hollow point to expand. If it does, I'm good as long as I get penetration, hopefully through-and-through. 125 grain bullets, in my opinion, are good for target practice. But for self-defense, I'll go with the FBI load.

Good performance when fired from a 4 inch barrel. If I carried a 4 inch or longer, I would certainly consider this cartridge.

Part 2 of this video, where the load is fired from a snub, tells a different story:

I have a couple boxes of 30+ year old FBI loads. Since CA will soon begin background checks on ammo purchases, I bought two more boxes of W-W .38 Special 158 grain LSWCHP +P. It's probably a good idea to replace old stuff with new even though every single round of off stuff, some of which is 40+ years old, has always fired.

While the stuff was on the high price side (I could of gotten it less expensively through a cop range store.), I figure that it's a good investment.

Here's the ammo I bought: Winchester Super-X Ammo 38 Special +P 158 Grain Lead Hollow Point

Since I never rely upon any hollow point to expand, I'm just as good with the LSWC +P version. I've carried it as well and have never felt slighted.

Hi 16thVACav,

When I've carried a 4" .357 Mag revolver for bipedal self-defense, it was always loaded with the FBI load. I also use it in my Model 60.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I think that I'd rather have the original FBI load of 158 grains LSWC +P. In my opinion and only in my opinion, penetration is more important than expansion. I'd rather have through-and-through penetration than expansion without through-and-through penetration. I can see how others have a different take on self-defense ammo.

The legendary .45 ACP created its stellar reputation using 230 grain ball at ~850 FPS.

For my 637 it's Buffalo Bore Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special 158 gr. Soft Lead SWC-HC.

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"In God We Trust"

Used to carry rem Golden sabers but swapped over to Speer's 135 grain +P for the 38 special as my carry gun is a model 36 Frank

I have been on the hunt for Speer Gold Dot in 38 special, but am unable to find it in Louisville KY area. I only see it in other calibers.

DWalt does have a great point that marksmanship & shot placement is key. That said, sometimes in a close quarters gun fight or the heat of the moment preferred shot placement is not always achievable.

Even the best performing bullet can be inadequate if a vital area is not struck - however I have to believe that a bullet with good velocity, good expansion and good weight retention is a better bet than something like a FMJ or slow moving bullet - all things being equal. I therefore believe that one should use the best bullet available and hone his/her skills to the best of their ability.

" There is no magic bullet, only magic bullet placement. "

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Jim L, I got mine at sgammo.com. No one around here carries it in stock. At the time the golden sabre was the only game in town literally. Frank

Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain ( not +P).

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John

Who said anyone does???

I have been shooting my model 36 for years. I think I'm beginning to get the hang of it now. I shoot Hornady Critical Defense 110 gr. They were on sale.

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Have Gun Will Carry

Just an observation from someone shooting for 40 years and taking many guns away from perps in high crime neighborhoods:

Bullet placement is something most people can only afford to really think about when on the range.

When fighting for your life and/or that of others in close quarter combat, it is highly unlikely that one will have the luxury/opportunity to deliberately consider such issues. If one is well trained, the training will likely overcome the adrenaline rush and the "fight or flight" response will kick in, allowing one to point and shoot or take defensive cover to improve the tactical situation.

Just my $.02.


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As many above have mentioned, BB LSWCHP (non +p) and/or GDSB tend to be the top SD candidates. I'm also fond of the BB LSWCHP+p provided it's fired from a hefty steel frame. I've experienced on multiple attempts that the +p version will jump crimp in my aluminum frame 442.

I carry Winchester PDX1 Defender, 130 Grain, +P in my Mod. 60-15 and 36.

Speer gold dot +P 135 grain in my 2" 642, Remington 158 grain LSWCHP +P in my 3" & 4" .38/.357 guns.

I was reading old articles by Skeeter Skelton. I believe they were
written in the 70s. Here are a couple of quotes: "In it's hottest factory
loading, .38 Special with the 158-Gr. bullet in a two-inch barrel gives
around 970 FPS at the muzzle, with energy rating of around 400 pounds."
"When I shoot factory loads in my snubbies, I pick 158-Gr. lead semi-
wadcutters made by all large ammunition makers. These cartridges
have normal pressures and velocities and a good bullet shape for
defense."
I'm sure Skeeter knew what he was talking about, but today's .38 Spl.
FBI loads are not that hot. Winchester is 800 FPS & 275 muzzle energy.
Remington is 870 MV and 280 ME. Federal 830 & 280. Buffalo Bore
comes closest at 1000 MV and 351 # muzzle energy.
Was Skeeter wrong or did the factory loaders cut back on the power?
I was around, but I don't remember.

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In Omnia Paratus

i don't know why you'd need loads that hot, but i'd like to know too, please.

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susie

My 638 loaded with Underwood full WC's and two speed strips loaded with Federal 158 LSWC"s

Wow ! All these post and I don't see any mention of the Hornady 158 grain XTP 38 special non plus P. A decent .38 for all occasions.....

John

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Loyalty Above All.. but Honor

Like wise.

Hey ! I still have a couple boxes of those in my emergency can !

I like the Speer 135 SB in my 2" M64. It hits dead center at 25 yards. The wife's M10 house gun is loaded with the Buffalo Bore 158 swchp standard. The Federal 129 hydra shock shoots well in the M64 too, but I wonder if it will expand.

That said, i usually carry a M66 with Silvertips or a 40 S&W duty gun.

Corbon DPX 110 +p works well for me.

Buffalo Bore .38 Special 150 grain hard cast wad cutter or Buffalo Bore .38 Special 158 gr hard cast Keith for my 340PD or 637-2 Power Port.

Either M36 or M60 .38 snub should handle something like a Speer 135 gr. GDSB +P load on a repeated basis without any deleterious effects; the rated velocity of that round is only 20 fps higher than Speer's 135 gr. TMJ practice round -- which is loaded to standard .38 Special SAAMI pressure. However, so-called "+P" loads offered by "boutique" ammo manufacturers may be entirely something else.

Gentlemen,
I'm so happy to read there's still love for the .38 LSWC.

Where I live, expanding ammo and +p ammo is prohibited. You shoot a BG with it and off to jail you go. So ridiculous.

The most common round down here is the old and dreaded LRN. Yeah... even the police used that until 5 years ago when they switched to Glock 17's (with FMJ).

God... so embarrassing.

I'm trying to get some standard LSWC to get rid of the LRN. This is the most advanced .38 round I can get my hands on (don't laugh) :'(




Be safe.

Don't throw away LRN; it's as good (or bad) as LSWC.

Winchester 125 grain LSWCHP +P+ is what I carried for years and still have in my Colt Cobra but have not been able to find the last several years. I'm down to my last 18 rounds so I will have to come up with a replacement or use a reload.Leaning toward the reload as I hate to pay what they ask for factory stuff now days.Bulk pack 22 LR is $49.95 in my area and the first and only two boxes of Winchester 325 short mag factory ammo I ever bought cost me nearly that for a 20 round box.

Eddie

Just curious, how many of you that have recommended brand XYZ have used brand XYZ to actually defend yourself with?

Just curious, do you have any .38 special self-defense ammo recommendation based on actually using such ammo to defend yourself?

Recommendations are almost always based on controlled factory tests along with history of real world performance. Doesn't mean you personally had that experience. It's almost impossible to give actual personal experiences since most of us have never been in a gun fight. Kinda like when you research a new car. Just cause no one you know has one doesn't make it a bad car

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Nope.

I guess that's why you didn't see a recommendation or me feeling so STRONGLY about brand XYZ because what it did to a watermelon and 3 jugs of water.