Several months ago I was given information so bizarre that it might be accurate. I would have queried earlier, but I thought I would embarrass myself with naïveté.

Okay, here goes. A significant problem with hollow point ammunition - in my specific case Remington HTR +P 38 Special 158-grain LSWC-HP - is the hollow point clogging with clothing or other material. Expansion does not occur, causing excessive penetration and significantly reducing ability of the bullet to stop the threat.

I was told that filling the "FBI Load's" hollow point with paraffin eliminates clogging, restoring the bullet's expansion while controlling excessive penetration.

I am reluctant to drip hot wax on live ammunition to test the information. So I'm asking: Has anyone tested this concept?

A - I sincerely doubt that anyone has tried this.

B - I also sincerely doubt that dripping hot wax into a hollow point bullet in a live cartridge will have any repercussions but, like most folks, unless I HAD TO DO IT, why would I?

C - Why do you need hot wax? You could just as easily take a cartridge with an HP bullet and shove it into a candle point first - it will most likely come out jammed full of wax. Then you just hold it in your hand, finger on top, it warms a little, fills the void - VOILA! You're done.

4. There is an easier solution. Use Hornady's Critical Defense ammunition. It has a hollow point bullet with a polymer insert - so it's not actually hollow. It is supposed to be able to pass through heavy clothing like a solid but expand when it hits flesh and bone.

5. I have friends who only shoot solids. That's another solution.

I'm pretty skeptical of hollow point bullets in handguns.

I know, lots of wonderful pictures of ballistic gel and pretty mushrooms, but it just doesn't correspond to my experiences shooting animals with handguns.

I've gotten much better terminal performance (critter dies promptly) with hard cast swc bullets than with holow points or other expanding bullets.

So, to answer OP's questions: i wouldn't bother trying to fill the hollow point with anything. Hot wax is not hot enough to create a problem if you insist on using it.

To paraphrase another member here:

YMMV, but IMO expansion would be nice (in an emergency) but I am much more interested in good solid hits with good penetration doing damage to something that matters.

Ken

No need to post - Ken said it.

I seem to vaguely remember reading an old article about this some time ago - may have been written by Ayoob. I guess some cops may have done this back in the day, but I have no idea if it really helped or if it just one of those "old wives tales".

Then just pick a different bullet type. It really is that simple.




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Well there ya go.....

That's why I favor the ol sharp shoulder'd Semi-Wad Cutter.


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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Yes it is true but the info you got was very vague.
FIRST: Not all hollow points are created equal. Many cheaper brands fail to expand regardless of everything else.
SECOND: A lot of the ammo is ment to be used in duty sized guns. Your talking M&P fs, Glock 19/17, Beretta 92, Sig 226. 4in lode 10/13/15/19/66/27/28. When you start using the same ammo in compact or subcompact guns they don't get enough velocity.

This is why a lot of the tests are done with 4 layers of denim.

Speer makes a specific 38spl load that expands when shot out of short barrel revolvers.

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They work wonders on 2 legged bad guys

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That test fails to take into effect modern bonded hollow points.

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I wouldn't think you would want to dip the tip in hot wax I would think you would want to let the hot wax from a candle drip TN the hollow point. Just my thought
John

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That's fine. No caliber. ..not 357, not 308, not 50bmg not even the A bomb is 100% guaranteed. Don't believe me? Look it up!

Doesn't change the fact that technology has changed and will continue to change. Hollow point of the 80s and early 90s ar t what they are today. Now I'm talking about proven performance not just any bullet with a hole in it. Can't really compare ammo performance form 1906 to 2016.

Here's how they measured stopping power.

In addition to cattle several donated human corpses which were used for ‘pendulum’ tests in which the cadaver was hung from the ceiling and then shot with a variety of calibres including .32ACP, .45, .30 Luger and .455 Webley. The distance the body swung was then measured and this was taken as an indication of the bullets stopping power.

So stopping power is how much a corpse swings.

Here's another good test

"1,300lbs Bull Shot with a .45 Colt:
00:00 – Shot through lungs
01:00 – Shot through lungs again
02:00 – Shot through lungs again
02:35 – Shot in abdomen; fell, then got up
02:45 – Shot in abdomen; fell; got up; fell, but tried staying on its feet for 70 seconds
03:55 – Killed with hammer blow to the head"

How does this show the 45 Colt true balistics? What does a 1300lbs bull have in common with a 150 lbs man?

Conclusion: “a 'cupped’ or hollow point bullet of soft lead, like the so-called “man-stopper” be issued for service of troops…The stopping power of this bullet at close range is remarkable." --- All based on how much a corpse swings.


Now let's break it down further just to see how unscientific it was. Only 13 animals were shot.

1. That more animals were shot with the .45 calibers making the statistical outcome irrelevent.
A. 8 were shot with the .45 calibers.
B. 2 were shot with the .30 Luger.
C. 1 was shot, thats right just only 1 was shot, with the 9mm, the 38 ACP and 38 long colt.

Why shoot 8 animals with a 45 but one 1 each for 9, 38acp and 38lc?

The 45 was the only one to use Hollow point bullets.

Only one bullet killed a 1300lbs animal outright and that was the 30luger.

Neither LaGarde nor Stephen Trask remembered the tests rightly years later (when quoting for later info that was put out in publications like "Gun Shot Injuries".)

In regards to stopping power this is what the board had to say: The board has been prompted to refer to this point because of the prime importance of decisive shooting at close quarters, and of the large amount of target area of the human body whch offers no hope of stopping an adversary by shock or other immedieate results when hit."

From gun digest
It is interesting to note that they flat point 9mm (fmj) that was adopted by the U.S. Air Force (circa 1983) is very like the one tested in 1904. We have taken 76 years (today 96 years) to come full circle in the design of 9mm military ammo.

My opinion, for what it's worth...

Whether you think HP bullets will expand or not, there is one thing to consider. Look at FMJ or truncated cone bullet shapes. The front of the bullet is rounded or flat with rounded edges. Now look at HP ammo. It looks like a cookie cutter. Even if HP ammo didn't expand, which do you think is more likely to cause tissue damage?

Can HP ammo clog with clothing and act like FMJ, or fail to expand for other reasons? Sure. But HP bullets are still more likely to expand and/or cause more tissue damage than solid bullets. I'd rather stack the odds in my favor and use HP ammo that at least has a chance of expanding.

I'd avoid adding wax to a HP bullet to prevent clothing from clogging it. Either keep using your FBI loads as is or pick a round like the Hornady Critical Defense that ISCS Yoda suggested.

I've shot dozens of hogs in Texas with handguns & nothing in my experiences shuts them down faster than a 230 JHP from a 45 ACP no matter the barrel length. My preference is Speer Gold Dots or the 2nd generation Black Talon.
Beruisis

Why? It's not like it's going to blow up.

You could probably drip hot wax directly on smokeless gun powder, without incident. Just make sure you don't use an open flame candle!

I don't think you need to worry about excessive penetration with the .38 SPL. Sometimes you want more! If the perp is wearing a Carhartt jacket, I want the bullet to penetrate, not flatten out and stop.

Do some test of your own.

A little off topic...

If you're referring to the story of the 9mm round that was stopped by a Carhartt jacket, which I believe was an NYPD incident, you should know that the jacket stopped the round AFTER it had penetrated through the suspect's body. In other words, it did what it was supposed to do.

Speer Gold Dots are good expanders, they have a BIG hole. They are also tested in experiments and in the field and do a good job.

Hornady makes a bullet with a plastic insert in the end. Is it the XTF??? I don't really know if this works or not. Their XTPs are highly rated.

Candle wax on a bullet tip isn't going to ignite anything, but I have no idea if it would be effective.

Down south here we generally don't have to worry about a lot of clothes getting in the way, except for a few weeks of cold weather.

I can't name them right now but some of the other top quality ammo has good 'clog resistant'. There are tests all over the web. I'd take a look. Seems like 'Silvertips' are good.

About anything will do better than a RN slug. Hollow point SWCs have been respected for a long time and some of the 'boutique' ammo uses them.

Some people advocate the old 'hollow wadcutter' turned around backwards as being effective.

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Maybe you need the Lehigh Extreme Defense but only for 45 colt for a Taurus Judge because it's hollow point is almost an inch in length!

Ain't no such thing as excessive penetration. If one hole is good, then 2 holes have to be twice as good.

I've used both versions of the FBI load. I like W-W 158 grains SWC +P. But I'll put hollow points in it, too.

BTW, while I know hollow point technology has improved, I never rely upon one to expand. If it does, assuming I get good penetration, I'll take it. Given a choice between penetration w/o expansion and an advertisement-perfect mushroom with less penetration, I'd go with the former.

Back in the day of police wheel guns, the often called "FBI load" was the .38 Special rage, because it worked. A neighboring department shot quite a few suspects with it (sans the wax) over the years, and there were very few who survived to recount their unpleasant experiences.

My department issued the so called "Treasury load," a 110 grain +P+ JHP, and it wasn't nearly as effective.

I'll admit I prefer the standard SWC, heavy for caliber, in most revolver rounds. That said, you should google Dr. Gary Roberts and his ammo testing - he was a student of Dr. Fackler's and is his successor as the leading expert on terminal ballistics.

IIRC, the "Ballistics and Projectile Performance" sub-forum at Lightfighter does not require joining to read, and Gary posts a lot of good stuff there. There are also some very good discussions including good questions and other very savvy people.

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NHI, 10-8.

I've watched all the You tube video I can handle and one thing I have noticed is that most modern rounds, at .38 special velocities, including the FBI load pass with flying colors when shot is bare gel but when shot through 4 layers of denim most will fail and over penetrate.

I prefer the FBI load as it will normally expand, as long as you don't have 4 layers of denim and if not at least you have a heavy ball round. I do not trust .38 special Silver Tips nor any 110 grain bullet. I would rather have a round that passes all the through, making 2 holes, than one that fails to penetrate enough.

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because of the heat of the bullet as it is leaving the barrel what little bit of wax I think would have melted before ever hitting the intended target ..

No one likes soft points?

No. Not for personal defense.

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NHI, 10-8.

Done a lot of testing on HP ammunition for the department I worked at and on my own. Read a lot of shooting reports over the years.
No ammunition works perfectly every time as many situations have unique variables but some have a higher rate of consistency than others.
I myself prefer Gold Dot.

I myself prefer JHP as I've personally seen FMJ and SWC not work in spectacular fashion (hit a rabbit COM with a .44 mag SWC and it ran off! )

If the bullet clogs on clothing? simple keep shooting whatever's the problem until it stops not only being a problem but until it stops being alive,good reason to carry a few spare mags.

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We used the FBI round successfully in my agency before transitioning to the Glock. When a round leaves the barrel you have little control over the outcome so this seems to be much ado about nothing. Practice often and hope you never have to use this skill.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I bought another Shield 9mm Saturday, took it to the range for testing and ran several brands of JHP through it. After cleaning it when I got home I sat there looking at boxes of Gold Dots, Critical Duty, Winchester Ranger, PDX1, and Hornady Custom trying to decide which to load the 4 mags with....I went with the Gold Dots!

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Hollow points have come a long way since the Super-Vel days. There was much trial and error and outright failure. However, I have faith in today's hollow points, which, are more consistent than the hollow points of a mere 20 or 30 years ago. But then, if you insist in whittling the barrel down to nothing, expect a performance deficit, especially with heavy bullets.

I too favor the Hornady, Critical Defense ammo because it feeds so well in all my SD handguns. No, nothing comes with a 100% money-back guarantee. The hollow points will most likely expand while full metal jacket will not. It's a no-brainer.