Church Security Calibers

jimmyj said:

Hi:
I am a new member of a church security unit.
Several members are retired LEO.
The main purpose is security in the main sanctuary. The building is one story.
The sanctuary is approx. 75 feet from main door to pulpit and approx. 75 feet wide.
The sanctuary is normally full on Sunday mornings.

To my mind, over penetration is a main concern in the event that an active shooter has to be dealt with.

A large slow moving handgun bullet is what I am thinking ?

Consideration :
1. .38 spl hollow base wad cutter bullet reversed with hollow base outward
2. .38 spl fragmentation round
3. .44 spl HP
4. .45 acp 185 gr HP

Opinions ??

Thanks
Jimmy

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The Presumptive Hazards of Over-Penetration
Failures to stop a suspect because of under-penetration, poor bullet placement, and completely missing the target are far more significant problems than over-penetration. With shots to the center of mass, if a handgun or rifle bullet fails to have enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels and organs in the torso, rapid physiological incapacitation is unlikely and an opponent may remain a lethal threat to officers and citizen bystanders. Conversely, if a bullet fired by officers completely penetrates a violent criminal and exits downrange, the bullet will certainly have had enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels or organs in the torso. As a result, it is more likely to have caused sufficient hemorrhage to induce hypovolemic shock--the only reliable method of physiological incapacitation in the absence of CNS trauma.

Unfortunately, according to the available published date, the majority of shots fired in the field by U.S. LE officers miss their intended target. According to published NYPD SOP-9 data, the NYPD hit ratio by officers against perpetrators in 2000 was 12.3% of shots fired and in 2001 13.5% of shots fired. The Miami Metro-Dade County PD had hit ratios ranging between 15.4% and 30% from 1988-1994. Portland PD reported hits with 43% of shots fired at adversaries from 1984-1992, while Baltimore PD reported a 49% average hit ratio from 1989-2002.

Given that the reported averages for LE officers actually hitting the suspect ranges between 12% to 49% of shots fired, more concern should be given to the between 51-88% of shots fired by LE officers which completely MISS the intended target and immediately result in a significant threat to any person down range, rather than excessively worry about the relatively rare instance where one of the 12%-49% of shots fired actually hits the intended target and then exits the perpetrator in a fashion which still poses a hazard.

In short, the consequences of projectile under-penetration are far more likely to get officers and citizens killed than over-penetration issues.

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V0OBWxZS16 said:

5.56

Your primary concerns in preventing injuries to innocents are accuracy and adequate penetration. Missing and directly shooting someone is a far greater concern than over-penetration and bullet effectiveness varies wildly with shot placement. The important body structures are buried deep within the torso and bullets need to be able to penetrate deep enough from any reasonable angle to damage them. Under-penetration results in ineffective hits even with perfect shot placement. The more rapidly you incapacitate the attacker(s) the fewer shots both you and the attacker(s) can fire and the safer everyone is.

Since long guns provide much improved accuracy vs. speed, terminal potential, and soft armor penetration I would choose carbine or SBR AR15s with a quality load.

If you want to stick to pistols then 9mm with a load off the list posted earlier. I believe that 9 is the best available compromise between accuracy, speed, capacity, cost, and terminal potential.

No matter what you choose prevention and proficiency are most important. Get something decent then focus your firearm resources on training.

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amazingflapjack said:

I would look at 44 spl loads used by early air marshals, and what they fired it out of. My choice would be an early Taurus M-441 5 shot 4 inch. It has the best short double action that I have experienced, and is a very high quality piece.

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Muss Muggins said:

I'm just gonna throw this out there, that it is just barely possible that having an usher staff carrying AR's with three point slings in the foyer is gonna put a damper on attendance . . .

Carry what you'd carry to protect you and yours in the grocery store. Stay safe . . .

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Muss Muggins said:

I'm just gonna throw this out there, that it is just barely possible that having an usher staff carrying AR's with three point slings in the foyer is gonna put a damper on attendance . . .

Carry what you'd carry to protect you and yours in the grocery store. Stay safe . . .

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