.45ACP FMJ, GEL TESTS, AND OVERPENETRATION.

RoyOdhner

RoyOdhner

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I keep hearing that .45ACP FMJ is a bad idea for self-defense due to over-penetration issues. However, I've never actually seen gel testing to support this.

Considering that .45ACP FMJ dispatched many an amped-up native warrior in the Philippines, cleaned numerous trenches in WWI, kicked butt across multiple continents in WWII, dropped innumerable commies in Korea and Vietnam, and stopped a multitude of other nefarious characters in a multitude of other conflicts are there any actual gel tests out there to show that over-penetration is actually all that big a concern? Or is is all just speculation based on 9x17, 9x18, and 9x19 gel testing results?
 
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I wouldn’t worry about gel penetration tests.

Gel doesn’t imitate real flesh and bone: it just offers a consistent medium to compare projectiles in. You can determine which projectile penetrates more than another.

This correlates weakly with penetration in the field, but there is no metric for ‘too much’ gel penetration: only guesstimates of ‘enough’.

Keep in mind that modern expanding ammo is designed to get small caliber projectiles to perform in the field as well as 45 acp ball ammo does.

Gel doesn’t simulate performance in real applications.

All that said, I’m unaware of instances of over penetration involving 45 ball ammo.

I’m happy with it for edc.
 
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I can't find the source, I think it was Dr. Martin Fackler, but it said .45ACP 230gr FMJ penetrated over 25" in gel.

More importantly, there have been incidents with .45 hardball overpenetrating and injuring someone behind the intended target.

Here's one article describing two of them:

Massad Ayoob: Is hollowpoint the best defensi | The Daily Caller

Some relevant portions:

From Arizona...
His gunfire dropped the offender…and passed through his body with enough force to deeply pierce the abdomen of the second cop, who had been trying to rescue the one who fired. That wounded officer almost died from those injuries, inflicted unintentionally by shoot-through with 230-grain full metal jacket 45 ACP.
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From Los Angeles...
When the perpetrator reached for his pistol, the cops opened fire, using department-issue 230-grain hardball. They fired four shots between them, and killed the offender before he could launch a single bullet of his own.

Autopsy showed any of the four hits would have been quickly fatal. However, only one of those bullets stayed in the offender’s body. One of the three exiting slugs struck one of the hostages. Fortunately, the wound was not life-threatening. LAPD quickly switched to hollow points, which is what they use today.
Click to expand...

My own opinion, you can use whatever ammo you want, but unless you're required by law or policy to use FMJ in a service caliber, I see absolutely no reason to carry FMJ considering the overpenetration and ricochet risks. You can never completely eliminate the risk of overpenetration, but you can effectively mitigate it while still achieving adequate penetration and performance with modern JHP designs.
 
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Hi Forum,
I have a small stash of .38 & .40 Glaser Safety Slugs (Blue tip), and I load them as the first few rounds in all of my guns. I know this is a little off topic and probably moot for most of you since they haven't been manufactured in a long time, but I've watched all of the vids. I could find over the years, and done my own research to see how they perform in my (stucco) walls (they're devastating to anything in the middle, but don't seem to dangerously penetrate the back). They will penetrate the outer shell of a car door - they blast through the hard stuff. If there are any folks who have field experience and opinions with these rounds, I'd really appreciate some feedback to help me validate my safety strategy. The other rounds are typical SD rounds. The Glasers pack a wallop without over-penetrating the back side of anything. I think they were too expensive to manufacture to be competitive in the market. Thanks. :)
Oops - Sorry - I just found a few threads about this, but still would like to hear from anyone willing.
 
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I would not base my carry on what happens in war. In war it doesn't matter where your bullet goes as long is it's going towards the enemy. Maybe a better way to say is to use logic and realize that not everything from a battlefield fits into civilian life

That being said this is the internet age. Type in "45acp fmj gell test" and get a plethora of videos

45ACP CCI Blazer 230gr FMJ impacting ballistic gelatin - YouTube

.45 ACP Ballistic Gel - YouTube

This is just the quick ones. I didn't feel like sitting through 10 min videos

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
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Look for tnoutdoors9 on you tube. He has several 'gel' test of different calibers , brands, etc. Seems to be very consistent on his test methods. Good information.
 
This was settled before the 1911 was issued,the 230 ball round killed just fine and was put into service and has worked since then. If it's not broken don't fix it. In my holster on my night stand loaded with ball 230 hardball 45a.c.p. 24/7 5 decades.
 
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What do pathologists say? A handgun basically makes a hole. Whether it's a .357 diameter hole or .452 hole doesn't matter much. It's where the hole is that matters.
 
Hardball (FMJ) ammunition cannot compare to the devastation created by modern self defense ammunition like the Federal HST. Along with overpenetration of the traditional hardball ammo, which not only creates a danger to possible secondary targets but wastes energy not deposited into the intended target....the bullet's FMJ design causes it to impact and pass through without doing as much damage to vital organs, which is the desired effect. Destructive, yes, but not nearly as effective as modern ammunition created and designed specifically for self defense.

Unfortunately, I've had the experience of attending many autopsies over the years, and taking custody of modern HST and other similar projectiles removed from primary targets, and these .45 caliber projectiles not only caused devastating injury, they all measured over .70" in diameter.....and they obviously caused no injury or damage to "secondary" targets....be it body or property....because all of their energy was released into the primary target.

The .45acp cartridge is at the top of the heap in terms of it's terminal ballistics (opinion) when loaded with most modern projectiles like the HST and Gold Dot for instance. On the other hand, "hardball" or FMJ is what I consider "practice" ammunition. If you are having concerns about the reliability of your chosen EDC firearm to function properly using modern self-defense ammunition and are forced to use hardball ammo.....you need a different (more reliable) handgun.

Carrying hardball ammo in your EDC is like driving with your emergency brake on, you are both limiting the gun's potential, and wasting a lot of available energy.

Link below is data from professional gel tests of .45 ACP self defense ammunition. Notice: FMJ is not tested..... because it's not considered viable ammunition for self defense......

Winchester Ranger T-Series, Federal HST, and Speer Gold Dot dominate the testing, they penetrate effectively, expand reliably, and dump all their energy into the target. Your job is to place shots in areas of the target that are vital to survival. If you do, this ammo will not disappoint.

Save your hardball FMJ for practice at the range, not for carry.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#45ACP
 
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I am sure all those 100,000's that were put in the ground by 45cap FMJ ball for over 100 years will not come back to life anytime soon.
 
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Im liking hard cast flat nose or SWC. The Elmer Keith concept. More disruption than a round nose. Probably just as good penetration.. Maybe a bit of deformation.
Any body done gel tests with these at 45 velocities ?
 
Find a quality ammo that works reliably in your pistol, shoots accurately and to point of aim or close to it at 25 yards. No need to worry if it's ball ammo or the latest hollow-point. If you avoid thinking and re-thinking this stuff incessantly, you may be comparatively far ahead of the crowd.
 
Frank Gusenberg, one of the seven victims of the St. Valentine's Day Massacre of Feb 14, 1929, lived long enough to get transported to the hospital with at least eleven 230 grain FMJs, fired from Thompsons, in his back.

The point is, there are no guarantees.
 
jeeps said:
I am sure all those 100,000's that were put in the ground by 45cap FMJ ball for over 100 years will not come back to life anytime soon. It is proven!!
Click to expand...

I am sure all those 100,000's that were put in the ground by .22lr for over 100 years will not come back to life anytime soon. It is proven!!
 
RoyOdhner said:
Considering that .45ACP FMJ dispatched many an amped-up native warrior in the Philippines, . . .
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That's what I've been looking for - an effective retroactive round! Those pesky Moros were at war with us in 1898, so we developed a pistol in 1911 that went back and took care of them. Too bad we couldn't go back and re-do the Vietnam war with the 6.5 Creedmoor, or maybe the 7.62 x 39.
 
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