Hey Guys

I have been looking at the 9mm 147gr HST and it seems in my opinion a 9mm trying to be a .45ACP. I was like if I am going to be 1000 fps, why not just stick to 45ACP in 230gr? Your thoughts. Oh and the recoil seems to be the same. I also think the accuracy of the .45 is better too

I always viewed the 9mm 147 grain loads as the 9mm trying to be the old .38 Special "FBI Load" +P 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter. I think more highly of the FBI Load than I do any 9mm ammunition but feel the 147 grain offerings are the best way to do 9mm.

I generally like the heavier bullets within the range of bullet weights offered for any given cartridge.

100% agree with you here.

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Jorge

This is a much-debated topic and I think both cartridges are excellent self-defense or law enforcement choices. But I disagree in 2 areas:

1. The 230 grain .45 load has about twice the recoil energy in the same weight gun as the 147 grain 9 mm load. This makes it much easier to get back on target for repeat shots with the 9 mm. If you don't believe me, do the math with one of the recoil energy calculators available online. Better yet, try shooting these 2 cartridges consecutively in similar weight guns and I think you'll agree.

2. Accuracy is much more dependent on the gun than the cartridge. Neither of those 2 cartridges is more intrinsically accurate than the other. A Les Baer 1911 in .45 is more accurate than a Glock 17 and a SIG X-5 in 9 mm is more accurate than a plain vanilla 1911.

Well I have the Glock 30S Gen4 using HST 230gr and it is more of a push than a flip. I think the 9mm 147 out of a P320 9mm Subcompact will have much higher felt recoil what do you think?

The other thing is, the 147gr 9mm does seem like the old school 158gr 38 which was weak.

I don't know what you all think of the Critical Defense 115gr but it has gotten very good reviews and talking about follow up shots, it is super low recoil and I think as long as you put the bullet where it is supposed to go, it will do its job

Well, that applies to all cartridges out there, don't it?

I don't think the 147gr in 9mm is weak.

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Jorge

My one complaint about ballistic gel and denim is, it's not the real world. I would like to see tests using maybe denim jeans, then beef cow ribs after, then ballistic gel. I am lead to believe a lot of bullets like HST would become an FMJ once it hit the denium and ribs, then gel. This is why I think the critical defense is perhaps the best of both worlds.

Ballistically speaking, (terminal ballistics) there is really no comparison between the 9mm and the .45. While the 147gr HST is a good choice for the 9mm, if given the option I would choose the .45 230gr Federal HST projectile every time. I have seen it's devastating results first hand.

Ultimately, I agree with the decision to select the gun/ammo you shoot the best......many (including me at my age) cannot handle the .45 any more.

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

I like 9mm in 147 gr. I would rather got to that than 115 gr. or lower. This doesn't mean that I'm going to give up my 125gr HSTs and Golden Sabers, but I'm experimenting with extra heavy, soft hollow point lead slugs in 9mm. Some people say, "Just get a .45." but that's not the answer when 9mm pistols have double the capacity. I don't expect to make a revolution, just satisfy my own curiosity. The problem I'm having now is making a 158 gr soft lead HP cartridge that will operate in a 9mm. I got an 'M' die and some other stuff, but so far, no cigar.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

The problem is that most people misunderstand the use of ballistic gel tests. They're not meant to simulate shooting people. They simulate muscle tissue. It provides a consistent standard for comparing rounds. The FBI standards of 12-18" penetration isn't meant to reflect the same depths in people. It means that a round that penetrates 12-18" in gel has a higher likelihood of penetrating deeply enough in people to reach vital organs and a lower likelihood of overpenetration.

I don't know what tests you've seen that show HST turning into FMJ because I've never seen tests showing that. In real world shootings, which I consider more valuable than gel tests, the 147gr HST 9mm performs very well. It's because of that proven track record that I use it in my home defense gun, a Beretta 92FS.

I generally prefer medium-to-heavy-for-caliber bullet weights because they're more likely to achieve that penetration than lighter rounds. In fact, people more knowledgeable and experienced than me recommend against Critical Defense ammo in general because they tend to lack penetration.

Now, if you shoot Critical Defense ammo significantly better than heavier, deeper penetrating bullets, than that might be a compromise worth making as getting good hits on target is more important than terminal ballistics.

As far as 9mm 147gr HST having the same recoil as .45ACP 230gr HST...I don't know what guns you're shooting in to get those results because I cannot imagine how that is even remotely possible in similar guns.

As far as which is better, neither are. Pretty much all service calibers, .38 Special to .45ACP, perform about the same in actual shootings, so pick the one you like best and meets whatever parameters you use (capacity, recoil, size, gun type, etc.).

tIs.there any data available how the HST performs? How did you know first hand? I have read the .45 plus P did have great results. The other delima I have is it's a tough choice to decide which gun to stick with for caonceal carry. My hands are very small so the only .45 that I can shoot accurate is the shield .45. I also carry the Glock .30s but the tip of my finger is on trigger so I have to drift my sight to compensate. The Cz p10c is the most accurate and I can do very quick double tapsbit you can drive yourself mad trying to just stick to one gun. b

Some say the 9mm is better than the 38 Special +P loading.
Others state that the .45 is better than the little 9mm loadings.

Would any of you stand in front of any of these rounds, thinking
that they will not put you down ? !

How Dead is Dead if the bullet hits its desired POA?

I know first hand both by attending autopsies and recovering these types of projectiles, and by reading/seeing autopsy results.

What you can shoot effectively is sometimes dictated by physical limitations. Because of my physical limitations, I can't carry the .45 now....so I carry the 9mm 147gr HST.

Self defense ammo testing.......https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...llistic-tests/

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Don’t do that! You don’t have to just stick to one gun. Probably most here alternate around between two or three, or even more. Just pick the one you “like” most. It’s almost certainly the one that you shoot best and are most comfortable using. Easy. Then, go to a smaller and/or lighter one when you “have to.”

I agree with others - a full-charge .45 kicks more. As for the 9mm, I usually buy what seems to shoot best in my guns. I’ve always found Federal Hydra-shoks, and subsequent versions, very accurate in any gun I’ve tried them in, in both calibers, but I don’t shoot many of them. In the 9, I think my guns seem to shoot 124s better than 147s, the exception being my old 92FS, which is the other way around. I’ve never bought anything except 230s for the .45.

There is an old saying beware of the man who only owns one gun and I think that is very true. Muscle memory I think plays a huge part in learning curve and being able to act under pressure. As I recall the 147gr HST was a bit 45ish as far as recoil. The Critical Defense was awesome and I have seen tests where they shoot the critical defense through pig shoulder and it performed fine

I should probably try to answer the question rather than expound on why i like 9mm. To me .45 rounds are pretty bulky. Nines can carry twice as much ammo (or more) without increasing much in size. I don't mind carrying a 5 shot J frame so a .45 with it's eight rounds should be plenty. But it's still a lot of gun to carry for such few rounds. And I don't worry about 'one stop shots' because I'm never planning on pulling the trigger just once.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I should probably try to answer the question rather than expound on why i like 9mm. To me .45 rounds are pretty bulky. Nines can carry twice as much ammo (or more) without increasing much in size. I don't mind carrying a 5 shot J frame so a .45 with it's eight rounds should be plenty. But it's still a lot of gun to carry for such few rounds. And I don't worry about 'one stop shots' because I'm never planning on pulling the trigger just once.

Today I think more rounds is a good idea because there is often more than one attacker Ok, the 9mm can carry as many as 9, which is one whole round more than eight.

An exception may be the .45 Shield. I've heard good things but have never seen one. Shoot, just looking at the picture and specs I may have to get one.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

WOW THE HST 150GR MICRO WASN'T ALL THAT. THE HST 147GR DID BETTER BUT NOT BY MUCH. THE TEMP STRETCH CAVITY ALSO DIDN'T SEEM TO BE ALL THAT.

This I feel is very realistic way more than just denin and gel

Check Paul Harrell on You Tube. He has videos using denim and ribs. The police pistol 9nm vs 40 cal is a good one.

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NEVER FORGET SEPT. 11th 2001

Funny, the last few published papers on the subject said that without recovering the bullet itself coroners were incredibly poor at identifying the caliber or even if it was "small" caliber or "large" caliber. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

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Who watches the watchers?

I sleep with a 1911, 45 ACP in a holster screwed to my bed post, and have for 40 years. I have went into the dark several times with nothing but this handgun when things went bump in the night. But I have no elusions that it is a wonder cartridge. I have shot antelope, deer, javalina, and coyote with the caliber and it is far from the bang flop cartridge that the internet experts claim it to be. I have not shot a single critter with a 9mm so have no first hand experience to relate. I trust my life on it only when my carbine is not handy. A friend has been shot on 2 occasions with a 45 and ball ammo with little effect. Both shots in the same leg several years apart. Accuracy is often toted as a reason for one load or another. But is a self defense situation I have heard of no person who said he had time to aim and could state that a certain situation would have resolved itself in a better way if he had used handgun ammo that would group 1/2" tighter groups. I am not a big fan of the FBI round. I have seen hundreds of game animals shot and killed many of those myself. I autopsy every animal and I believe that for a handgun cartridge to do the most damage it needs a jacket that peals back and offers "blades" to cut. The FBI load simply mushrooms back with smooth edges all around. I have shot several deer with this load and find the exit holes to be smooth and the lungs to have less damage than a good jacketed like Golden Sabers.

I have always felt that if you can't do what needs doing with two rounds, you are in deep trouble no matter what the cal. or capacity of the weapon. If you think the 9mm is just as accurate as the 45acp, why isn't used in bullseye matches where accuracy is considered essential. IMOP 2nd shot recovery depends as much on the weapon used as the ammunition. I thought is finest carry 45 acp ever was the S&W "Shorty 45" until I bought one. NO matter how hard I practiced, I couldn't control the rising torque & twist this pistol produced. I didn't keep it long and now depend on a SIG P220. (just my 2 cents)

If weight and controllability is the trump card than a weapon like a K2-45 that weights over a kilogram loaded would be the best choice. Problem is that its not, there are many factors. These debates are often a waste of time and sometimes become heated. Bottom line is, the best weapon is one you have with you, loaded, trained on, and with a willingness to use when necessary. All others are fantasies. Have a great day!

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Who watches the watchers?

Every 20 years or so the FBI (famous but incompetent) try and reinvent the laws of physics. The argument for fast and lite vs. slow and heavy goes on. Their ultimate decision is based more on politics than science. The issue now is that the snowflakes who are becoming agents have very little firearms experience so the trend is to dumb down the equipment choices so that the most recruits can qualify with the least amount of training. Hence, we have the 9mm so that we can replace marksmanship with the ability to carry more ammo and more chances to get a bullet into the bad guy in a spot where it will do some good. The management at the state and local law enforcement agencies will jump on the FBI junk science and suddenly "rediscover" that the 9mm is the most ballisticly effective handgun round ever developed. It will all be good until the next Miami shoot out when some perp goes on to kill a couple of agents after being pumped full of super high tech 9mm bullets. Then the leadership will wring their hands and we will go through the 45, 10mm, 40cal, heavy and slow argument all over again. On and on.

The only thing I'll carry in 9mm is 115. Period. If I want a heavier bullet I'll carry a 45.

edit: I mean who want's a slow 9MM?

What I do for a living is Pathology. I've done the autopsies and looked at the bullets from both the living (those that made it to the hospital door and got dumped off) and from the dead (those that made it to the back door of the hospital and got dumped off). In either case, the bullets pretty much looked the same as did the wounds. You're taking something hard and putting it in something squishy. Automatically you will have mixed results. Ballistic math can be misleading too. Math gives only one hard answer to a very soft question. So the number differences or even the visual differences looking at unfired bullets beg the question: What do the numbers really mean in a shooting? We hear of reports from police agencies that went both directions and said they were satisfied or that there was no discernable street difference. The street is where it counts. Gel is not the streets even though I think something useful can be gained from the studies. All the calibers had successes and failures. You are shooting at the bell curve of humanity, not at a standard like laboratory gel. All the studies I have reviewed over the years, no matter who did them or what parameters were used, came to essentially the same conclusions, time after time. So.... you have to do what you can do best and have confidence in.

And in the end, shot placement trumps everything.

I only have one 9mm in use, currently. A CS9. I load it with 147 grain Winchester RA9b. Standard velocity.

I would have no qualms about using the 147 HST either, but the RA9b is more readily available locally. But 147 grain 9mm is all I use when carrying a 9mm - which is only when a 45 is too big/heavy/not practical to carry.

I am a card carrying member of the shot placement school. But for working around miscreants or dealing with felons, I prefer 230 grain 45.

And when the day comes that I no longer am able to shoot a 45 caliber pistol well and efficiently. I will carry the CS9 with its 147 grain load......and make head shots. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Do you live under a bridge?
Your posts seem rather troll-ish lately.

In all seriousness, you keep asking these controversial questions in a provocative way. Is there some OTHER reason for that - other than to try to provoke some kind of reaction? Inquiring minds want to know...

I have been carrying a 6906 for 25 years. It's been loaded with HST (124 gr) for the last 15. I get 1000 fps out of 3 1/2" bbl, +P or thereabouts. 12 rds (j frame with reload +2). Several times a year I pull the weapon and empty the mag (appropriate target in appropriate environment), zero failures so far, ever. I can hit what I shoot at most of the time within 7 yds (sheet of copy paper usually). I would carry any of a number of "better" guns if'n I knew "This is the day of the gunfight" but for now I'm going with what's familiar and comforting. I've owned a SS HK .45 USP compact for 15 years and I think "I should start carrying this." No Juju so I never do. It's more about being "old and set in my ways" than caliber preference. Joe

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Behavior Creates Destiny

9 mm HST or .45 acp HST ??

I have always felt very comfortable with .45 acp 230 grain FMJ

I have never liked the 9mm, though the .380 (9mm kurtz) seems alright. I carry a .45, and have since my Sheriff's Office changed from .357 revolvers to the new semi-auto .45. I have carried the same CS 45 for over 20 years. I was given the new, 4506, with 50 rounds through it when I retired.

My minimum self defense caliber is .38 special out of a 2” barrel. It is small and round enough to fit almost anywhere and shoots its five or more shots quite reliably from less than a perfect shooting stance or grip.
The service pistol calibers from 9mmP to .45, given today’s advanced projectiles, are a wash as far as effectiveness on humans.
I have no experience and, frankly, no desire to fool with anything.380.
If forced into a sub .38 special round for defense, I would rather have a quality 7.65 Browning (.32 ACP) loaded with Euro-spec ball ammo. I was so looking forward to the Beretta Pico in that caliber for deep concealment applications.

I wish people would quit it. This argument is useless. So here is the final word on the matter. 9mm is pretty good for self defense. So is 45, 10mm, 380, 44 magnum, 45 Colt, 327 Federal, etc. None of them are perfect, and none of them are useless. Even a little 22 can stop a bad guy. If the gun works properly and you like it, then it does not matter much what caliber it is. A woman that picks a tiny 380 because it is pink and cute, and practices a lot, is better armed than some video game dork carrying a Desert Eagle that he is afraid to actually shoot. Quit reading all the stupid articles and get whatever gun works best for you. Caliber is not going to matter very much.

Phewww....! I'm glad someone finally came along to clear this all up for us!

Well, if you have read the HUNDREDS of paged of caliber debate threads on this and/or any/every gun site, you'll know that what Bill Raby posted is pretty much what they all come down to in the end.

If you haven't read them, then feel free to do so and see for yourself. He did pretty much post what as been determined (after pages and pages and pages of debate in countless threads) to be the definitive answer.

Shot placement trumps caliber and any of the common service calibers will serve adequately for self defense. THERE IS NO BEST CALIBER. There are only OPINIONS about which is the best caliber.

Adamantly stating an opinion that any one of the common service calibers is best - or even better than another - is just picking a stinking fight and therefore POINTLESS. IMO that borders on trolling - especially when done by anyone who has been around long enough to know the way that such topics de-volve.

Just my $0.02...

I have some Federal HST 45 ACP +P on the way through the mail for my XD Mod 2 4.0. I used to carry my 1911 but the striker-fired weapons are amazing.

First and foremost, shot placement is the key factor.

With modern bullets, I think the debate of 9mm vs 40S&W vs 45ACP should be a whole lot less about the caliber and more about what fits your hands the best and what you can best control.

A secondary argument could be ammo capacity. It is a fact that in a given space you can cram more 9mm rounds than 45ACP. But the primary argument needs to be what do you shoot best.

The 1911 in 45 acp is not an easy gun to master and shoot well.
Takes some training and practice.
The 9mm is easier to shoot well, notice the FBI going back to it ?
Easier to get the agents through the qualifying course .
Most people like easy...so they go with the 9mm and tell themselves it's better than the old hard to shoot 45, the 45 just takes too much effort to master .
Gary

The best caliber for self defense is the one in your hand. If you look a couple of posts up you will see one from me that says "shot placement trumps everything". The problem is a myopic view of what this argument really is. The conversation is: ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, what is the best caliber for self defense? If the opinions don't agree with what your opinion is, that dosen't necessarily make them wrong. MARATHONRUNNER started a thread about 9mm vs 45acp and why one is better than the other. Some of the posters here contributed some great comments. My point with BillRaby is that if he is exasperated by the fact that this topic is even being discussed and it is a "useless" augment because his opinion is the only right one, then why is he engaging in it?

Even better still....take a video camera to the range and ask the range master to record you shooting 9mm and .45acp back to back while being timed.
Slow-motion replay of your session will clearly show MORE accurate rounds on target with the 9mm.

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Stay protected my friends.

The FNX-45 holds 15+1 and with HST .45 230 grain +Ps is a wicked duty pistol.

The results between the 147 & 150 were about the same, but with the 150 having noticeably less recoil and muzzle flash, I call that....advantage 150gr.

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Stay protected my friends.

You're reading Bill's post differently than I am. I don't see where he is expressing an opinion on either caliber in question - but rather he's commenting on the pointlessness of these debates. He isn't engaging in the ARGUMENT - he's saying there is no point in having it AGAIN. As am I. Just as you are with your comment about the BEST caliber for self defense being the one you have with you.

Caliber wars arguments are pointless. Starting one by stating that one caliber is clearly better than another is just starting a pointless argument. THAT is my point.

Caliber war arguments are useful for one thing: selling gun magazines and books.

The 9MM has the tactical advantage of capacity, which is good for cover fire.

I've used to carry a 9MM and W-W Ranger LE 147 grain ammo. There is a huge ZERO difference in keeping either on target. But then again The King is usually fired from heavier 1911-A1 handguns. It's single action trigger makes it capable of faster rate of fire.

It the enemy is a band of marauding midgets, the 9MM might be sufficient. If the enemy is Japanese suicide charges in the Pacific or studly Germans of both World Wars, the 1911-A1 is the right tool for the job.