9mm 147gr HST or .45ACP HST 230gr why 9mm when .45 is better?

Hey Guys

I have been looking at the 9mm 147gr HST and it seems in my opinion a 9mm trying to be a .45ACP. I was like if I am going to be 1000 fps, why not just stick to 45ACP in 230gr? Your thoughts. Oh and the recoil seems to be the same. I also think the accuracy of the .45 is better too

I always viewed the 9mm 147 grain loads as the 9mm trying to be the old .38 Special "FBI Load" +P 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter. I think more highly of the FBI Load than I do any 9mm ammunition but feel the 147 grain offerings are the best way to do 9mm.

I generally like the heavier bullets within the range of bullet weights offered for any given cartridge.

bmcgilvray said:

...but feel the 147 grain offerings are the best way to do 9mm.

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100% agree with you here.

This is a much-debated topic and I think both cartridges are excellent self-defense or law enforcement choices. But I disagree in 2 areas:

1. The 230 grain .45 load has about twice the recoil energy in the same weight gun as the 147 grain 9 mm load. This makes it much easier to get back on target for repeat shots with the 9 mm. If you don't believe me, do the math with one of the recoil energy calculators available online. Better yet, try shooting these 2 cartridges consecutively in similar weight guns and I think you'll agree.

2. Accuracy is much more dependent on the gun than the cartridge. Neither of those 2 cartridges is more intrinsically accurate than the other. A Les Baer 1911 in .45 is more accurate than a Glock 17 and a SIG X-5 in 9 mm is more accurate than a plain vanilla 1911.

HKSmith said:

This is a much-debated topic and I think both cartridges are excellent self-defense or law enforcement choices. But I disagree in 2 areas:

1. The 230 grain .45 load has about twice the recoil energy in the same weight gun as the 147 grain 9 mm load. This makes it much easier to get back on target for repeat shots with the 9 mm. If you don't believe me, do the math with one of the recoil energy calculators available online. Better yet, try shooting these 2 cartridges consecutively in similar weight guns and I think you'll agree.

2. Accuracy is much more dependent on the gun than the cartridge. Neither of those 2 cartridges is more intrinsically accurate than the other. A Les Baer 1911 in .45 is more accurate than a Glock 17 and a SIG X-5 in 9 mm is more accurate than a plain vanilla 1911.

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Well I have the Glock 30S Gen4 using HST 230gr and it is more of a push than a flip. I think the 9mm 147 out of a P320 9mm Subcompact will have much higher felt recoil what do you think?

The other thing is, the 147gr 9mm does seem like the old school 158gr 38 which was weak.

I don't know what you all think of the Critical Defense 115gr but it has gotten very good reviews and talking about follow up shots, it is super low recoil and I think as long as you put the bullet where it is supposed to go, it will do its job

marathonrunner said:

...and I think as long as you put the bullet where it is supposed to go, it will do its job

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Well, that applies to all cartridges out there, don't it?

I don't think the 147gr in 9mm is weak.

bmcgilvray said:

I always viewed the 9mm 147 grain loads as the 9mm trying to be the old .38 Special "FBI Load" +P 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter. I think more highly of the FBI Load than I do any 9mm ammunition but feel the 147 grain offerings are the best way to do 9mm.

I generally like the heavier bullets within the range of bullet weights offered for any given cartridge.

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My one complaint about ballistic gel and denim is, it's not the real world. I would like to see tests using maybe denim jeans, then beef cow ribs after, then ballistic gel. I am lead to believe a lot of bullets like HST would become an FMJ once it hit the denium and ribs, then gel. This is why I think the critical defense is perhaps the best of both worlds.

Ballistically speaking, (terminal ballistics) there is really no comparison between the 9mm and the .45. While the 147gr HST is a good choice for the 9mm, if given the option I would choose the .45 230gr Federal HST projectile every time. I have seen it's devastating results first hand.

Ultimately, I agree with the decision to select the gun/ammo you shoot the best......many (including me at my age) cannot handle the .45 any more.

I like the idea 147 gr....

I like 9mm in 147 gr. I would rather got to that than 115 gr. or lower. This doesn't mean that I'm going to give up my 125gr HSTs and Golden Sabers, but I'm experimenting with extra heavy, soft hollow point lead slugs in 9mm. Some people say, "Just get a .45." but that's not the answer when 9mm pistols have double the capacity. I don't expect to make a revolution, just satisfy my own curiosity. The problem I'm having now is making a 158 gr soft lead HP cartridge that will operate in a 9mm. I got an 'M' die and some other stuff, but so far, no cigar.

marathonrunner said:

My one complaint about ballistic gel and denim is, it's not the real world. I would like to see tests using maybe denim jeans, then beef cow ribs after, then ballistic gel. I am lead to believe a lot of bullets like HST would become an FMJ once it hit the denium and ribs, then gel. This is why I think the critical defense is perhaps the best of both worlds.

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The problem is that most people misunderstand the use of ballistic gel tests. They're not meant to simulate shooting people. They simulate muscle tissue. It provides a consistent standard for comparing rounds. The FBI standards of 12-18" penetration isn't meant to reflect the same depths in people. It means that a round that penetrates 12-18" in gel has a higher likelihood of penetrating deeply enough in people to reach vital organs and a lower likelihood of overpenetration.

I don't know what tests you've seen that show HST turning into FMJ because I've never seen tests showing that. In real world shootings, which I consider more valuable than gel tests, the 147gr HST 9mm performs very well. It's because of that proven track record that I use it in my home defense gun, a Beretta 92FS.

I generally prefer medium-to-heavy-for-caliber bullet weights because they're more likely to achieve that penetration than lighter rounds. In fact, people more knowledgeable and experienced than me recommend against Critical Defense ammo in general because they tend to lack penetration.

Now, if you shoot Critical Defense ammo significantly better than heavier, deeper penetrating bullets, than that might be a compromise worth making as getting good hits on target is more important than terminal ballistics.

As far as 9mm 147gr HST having the same recoil as .45ACP 230gr HST...I don't know what guns you're shooting in to get those results because I cannot imagine how that is even remotely possible in similar guns.

As far as which is better, neither are. Pretty much all service calibers, .38 Special to .45ACP, perform about the same in actual shootings, so pick the one you like best and meets whatever parameters you use (capacity, recoil, size, gun type, etc.).

armorer951 said:

Ballistically speaking, (terminal ballistics) there is really no comparison between the 9mm and the .45. While the 147gr HST is a good choice for the 9mm, if given the option I would choose the .45 230gr Federal HST projectile every time. I have seen it's devastating results first hand.

Ultimately, I agree with the decision to select the gun/ammo you shoot the best......many (including me at my age) cannot handle the .45 any more.

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tIs.there any data available how the HST performs? How did you know first hand? I have read the .45 plus P did have great results. The other delima I have is it's a tough choice to decide which gun to stick with for caonceal carry. My hands are very small so the only .45 that I can shoot accurate is the shield .45. I also carry the Glock .30s but the tip of my finger is on trigger so I have to drift my sight to compensate. The Cz p10c is the most accurate and I can do very quick double tapsbit you can drive yourself mad trying to just stick to one gun. b

Some say the 9mm is better than the 38 Special +P loading.
Others state that the .45 is better than the little 9mm loadings.

Would any of you stand in front of any of these rounds, thinking
that they will not put you down ? !

How Dead is Dead if the bullet hits its desired POA?

I know first hand both by attending autopsies and recovering these types of projectiles, and by reading/seeing autopsy results.

What you can shoot effectively is sometimes dictated by physical limitations. Because of my physical limitations, I can't carry the .45 now....so I carry the 9mm 147gr HST.

Self defense ammo testing.......https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

marathonrunner said:

...The Cz p10c is the most accurate and I can do very quick double tapsbit you can drive yourself mad trying to just stick to one gun. b

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Don’t do that! You don’t have to just stick to one gun. Probably most here alternate around between two or three, or even more. Just pick the one you “like” most. It’s almost certainly the one that you shoot best and are most comfortable using. Easy. Then, go to a smaller and/or lighter one when you “have to.”

I agree with others - a full-charge .45 kicks more. As for the 9mm, I usually buy what seems to shoot best in my guns. I’ve always found Federal Hydra-shoks, and subsequent versions, very accurate in any gun I’ve tried them in, in both calibers, but I don’t shoot many of them. In the 9, I think my guns seem to shoot 124s better than 147s, the exception being my old 92FS, which is the other way around. I’ve never bought anything except 230s for the .45.

M29since14 said:

Don’t do that! You don’t have to just stick to one gun. Probably most here alternate around between two or three, or even more. Just pick the one you “like” most. It’s almost certainly the one that you shoot best and are most comfortable using. Easy. Then, go to a smaller and/or lighter one when you “have to.”

I agree with others - a full-charge .45 kicks more. As for the 9mm, I usually buy what seems to shoot best in my guns. I’ve always found Federal Hydra-shoks, and subsequent versions, very accurate in any gun I’ve tried them in, in both calibers, but I don’t shoot many of them. In the 9, I think my guns seem to shoot 124s better than 147s, the exception being my old 92FS, which is the other way around. I’ve never bought anything except 230s for the .45.

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There is an old saying beware of the man who only owns one gun and I think that is very true. Muscle memory I think plays a huge part in learning curve and being able to act under pressure. As I recall the 147gr HST was a bit 45ish as far as recoil. The Critical Defense was awesome and I have seen tests where they shoot the critical defense through pig shoulder and it performed fine

Anything beats nothing.....

I should probably try to answer the question rather than expound on why i like 9mm. To me .45 rounds are pretty bulky. Nines can carry twice as much ammo (or more) without increasing much in size. I don't mind carrying a 5 shot J frame so a .45 with it's eight rounds should be plenty. But it's still a lot of gun to carry for such few rounds. And I don't worry about 'one stop shots' because I'm never planning on pulling the trigger just once.

Anything beats nothing.....

I should probably try to answer the question rather than expound on why i like 9mm. To me .45 rounds are pretty bulky. Nines can carry twice as much ammo (or more) without increasing much in size. I don't mind carrying a 5 shot J frame so a .45 with it's eight rounds should be plenty. But it's still a lot of gun to carry for such few rounds. And I don't worry about 'one stop shots' because I'm never planning on pulling the trigger just once.

Today I think more rounds is a good idea because there is often more than one attacker Ok, the 9mm can carry as many as 9, which is one whole round more than eight.

An exception may be the .45 Shield. I've heard good things but have never seen one. Shoot, just looking at the picture and specs I may have to get one.

WOW THE HST 150GR MICRO WASN'T ALL THAT. THE HST 147GR DID BETTER BUT NOT BY MUCH. THE TEMP STRETCH CAVITY ALSO DIDN'T SEEM TO BE ALL THAT. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYTd1lNx_TQ[/ame]

This I feel is very realistic way more than just denin and gel


[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9Cqcht_fas&t=353s[/ame]

marathonrunner said:

My one complaint about ballistic gel and denim is, it's not the real world. I would like to see tests using maybe denim jeans, then beef cow ribs after, then ballistic gel. I am lead to believe a lot of bullets like HST would become an FMJ once it hit the denium and ribs, then gel. This is why I think the critical defense is perhaps the best of both worlds.

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Check Paul Harrell on You Tube. He has videos using denim and ribs. The police pistol 9nm vs 40 cal is a good one.