Is the 40 S&W a must have cartridge?

italiansport · #**101** 10-08-2019, 04:07 PM

IMO Bottom line on the 40. A very formidable cartridge and one I have no problem carrying. Out of "political" favor in some groups particularly after the FBI dropped it. Their reason given was some of their agents couldn't handle the recoil and the new 9mm is just as good.. This is my understanding as to why some police depts don't issue it along with the 45acp.

Echo40 · #**102** 10-08-2019, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dla

I think you missed the point. If I need to get into a fight - I take a rifle.
The wimpy pistol is something I have with me out of convenience, since I'm likely to have it with me when I need it.
All wimpy pistol cartridges are much the same.

It's amazing how such a demonstrably false, grossly exaggerated sentiment could be so massively overstated in an age in which information is so readily available.

Common sense alone should be sufficient evidence to the contrary given the fact that pistols are still employed by law enforcement and most often serves as the defacto primary weapon of police officers.

jim lock · #**103** 10-08-2019, 04:19 PM

IMHO--- It AIN'T the caliber ---- Its the perfect sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control that's important.

Rubone · #**104** 10-08-2019, 07:10 PM

I like the .40 just fine. My guns are accurate and I can shoot them well. And I find the nonsense about recoil laughable. I never have noticed it and follow up is no issue. And ammo is everywhere and not expensive. I recently bought 1000 rounds for a 1 cent difference from 9mm in bulk. I consider the penny well spent!

And there are many calibers in the mix for me, so plenty of variety to compare.

dla · #**105** 10-09-2019, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan

It's amazing how such a demonstrably false, grossly exaggerated sentiment could be so massively overstated in an age in which information is so readily available.

Common sense alone should be sufficient evidence to the contrary given the fact that pistols are still employed by law enforcement and most often serves as the defacto primary weapon of police officers.

Anytime a Cop has to get into a fight, (except on TV), they either grab their rifle/shotgun, call for plenty of backup, and likely call in SWAT. And SWAT uses rifles.
Nobody with a working brain runs into a fight with a handgun if they have the option of a rifle.

rockquarry · #**106** 10-09-2019, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dla

Anytime a Cop has to get into a fight, (except on TV), they either grab their rifle/shotgun, call for plenty of backup, and likely call in SWAT. And SWAT uses rifles.
Nobody with a working brain runs into a fight with a handgun if they have the option of a rifle.

With regard to your absolute certainty, it would seem your comments were based on your law enforcement experience and surely not on something that you know nothing about.

Again, with your experience in the forefront, you might consider that on occasion (perhaps on many occasions), police officers, even ones "with working brains" might find themselves in situations where they have no access to rifles or shotguns.

Nothing to argue here, just looking at things as they often are.

Sevens · #**107** 10-09-2019, 10:07 AM

Pointless arguing of terminology isn't productive and it does this forum a disservice. Cops (and citizens who legally carry) don't go anywhere specifically to fight. Armed conflict is a tiny slice of an officer's career, by and large, and police that specifically respond to armed conflict (SWAT) go equipped like soldiers. And soldiers don't go anywhere without a rifle.

Yes, compared to a rifle, EVERY duty, service, defense and concealed carry handgun round is CHUMP, and these handguns are only employed because it isn't practical to be saddled with a long gun all the time when you aren't a soldier who is prepared for war.

oddshooter · #**108** 10-09-2019, 11:34 AM

Sevens,
I'm with you.
"Pointless arguing of terminology isn't productive and it does this forum a disservice."
Some caliber wars are interesting and educational. This isn't one.

Prescut

Erocksmash · #**109** 10-09-2019, 11:43 AM

.40cal.... I loved the .40 S&W until I learned about the 10mm and how .40 S&W was born of it.... then all my .40s went to the back seat sold most of them off... until last night I got my first ever "shorty" at first it was meh... but then the more I think of it as the day goes on its probably the most accurate pistol I own... shoot what you shoot best... I dont think the target/ badguy cares if its getting shot with a .40 or a .22 a 10mm or .45acp if its accurate and good to you then use it..

fredj338 · #**110** 10-09-2019, 01:52 PM

A must have, no. A nice tweener, sure. I like the 40 in a full size pistol, in a compact or sub I prefer a 9mm, just easier to get good/fast hits with. The 40 offers more bullet mass in a smaller pistol than most 45. Though my xd45C is the same size as a G23. In my 10rd state, it's a push. I will always be a 45 fan but with todays better 9mm JHP, it does just fine.

crazyphil · #**111** 10-09-2019, 02:01 PM

Back in 2002 Ed Sanow had an article in GUNS & AMMO ANNUAL titled
Top Ten Self Defense Loads. He ranked the loads according to their
One Shot Stops.

With an astounding 97% one shot stops, number one among self defense
bullet and caliber combinations is the Federal .40 S&W 155-Gr. Hydra-Shok.
Number 2 at 96% was Federal's .357 Magnum 125-Gr. JHP.
At number 3, actually a tie with number 2, was the Federal .45 ACP 230-Gr. Hydra-Shok.

I bought a Glock model 22 and some of those Federal 155-Gr. Hydra-Shoks.
Found them to be very accurate. Never had the need to proove
the one-shot stop claim (fortunately).

My granddaughter liked the Glock, so I gave it to her, along with a few
of it's holsters. Shown below, left to right.
Glock model 22 .40
Galco Cop holster
Galco NSA IWB
Ross Driver's crossdraw
Aker Yaqui slide

fredj338 · #**112** 10-09-2019, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyphil

Back in 2002 Ed Sanow had an article in GUNS & AMMO ANNUAL titled
Top Ten Self Defense Loads. He ranked the loads according to their
One Shot Stops.

With an astounding 97% one shot stops, number one among self defense
bullet and caliber combinations is the Federal .40 S&W 155-Gr. Hydra-Shok.
Number 2 at 96% was Federal's .357 Magnum 125-Gr. JHP.
At number 3, actually a tie with number 2, was the Federal .45 ACP 230-Gr. Hydra-Shok.

I bought a Glock model 22 and some of those Federal 155-Gr. Hydra-Shoks.
Found them to be very accurate. Never had the need to proove
the one-shot stop claim (fortunately).

My granddaughter liked the Glock, so I gave it to her, along with a few
of it's holsters. Shown below, left to right.
Glock model 22 .40
Galco Cop holster
Galco NSA IWB
Ross Driver's crossdraw
Aker Yaqui slide

First you have to believe in the one shot stop mythology, everything has failed at one time or another with solid COM hits. All handgun rds, all 12ga loads & many rifle rounds have all failed to deliver a one shot stop at some point. Even if the OSS were true, one still has to be able to deliver the solid COM hit. A G22 is a manageable pistol for that, a G27, not so much. Everything is bullet & shot placement specific. A good 9mm JHP is better than a mediocre 40 JHP or even 45. So it comes back to what you can deliver fast accurate good hits with.

Echo40 · #**113** 10-09-2019, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredj338

First you have to believe in the one shot stop mythology, everything has failed at one time or another with solid COM hits. All handgun rds, all 12ga loads & many rifle rounds have all failed to deliver a one shot stop at some point. Even if the OSS were true, one still has to be able to deliver the solid COM hit. A G22 is a manageable pistol for that, a G27, not so much. Everything is bullet & shot placement specific. A good 9mm JHP is better than a mediocre 40 JHP or even 45. So it comes back to what you can deliver fast accurate good hits with.

I would very much like to see a documented case in which someone took a shot from a .460/.500 S&W Magnum or a 12 Gauge Magnum Slug center mass and kept on coming.

Seriously, I have no difficulty believing that most handgun, rifle, and to a lesser extent shotgun shells loaded with buckshot can fail to result in a one-shot-stop, but I find it hard to believe that some of the largest caliber magnum handguns, shotgun slugs, and especially large caliber rifles have failed to immediately end a fight by means of incapacitation or death.

So if anyone could provide links to some articles involving cases in which a criminal took a center mass blast from big bore magnum handguns, shotgun slugs, or big bore rifles yet persisted in attacking.
Honestly, that would be an eye-opening experience.

That being said, it is to my understanding that the closest thing to a one-shot-stop which can be had without scoring a direct hit to the brainstem is a shot to the pelvis with a bullet powerful enough to break it, because obviously this makes them physically incapable of standing/walking.

sodacan · #**114** 10-09-2019, 07:55 PM

A worthless caliber like 45 GAP and 41 magnum. Save your money.

Groo01 · #**115** 10-09-2019, 10:49 PM

Groo here
If you get a good price and it fits you ,,,get it.
It will make a good 357sig!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I started with a 239 in 357sig and got a 9mm barrel for cheap
range work.
The 357 sig is much like the 357 mag , easy to hit with even at longer
ranges, and hits hard.
I have 3 glocks ,a springfield XD, and an EAA witness gold team.
All are 357sig but the Gold team as it is the ONLY 40 to shoot good groups...

Univibe · #**116** 10-10-2019, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan

I would very much like to see a documented case in which someone took a shot from a .460/.500 S&W Magnum or a 12 Gauge Magnum Slug center mass and kept on coming.

Seriously, I have no difficulty believing that most handgun, rifle, and to a lesser extent shotgun shells loaded with buckshot can fail to result in a one-shot-stop, but I find it hard to believe that some of the largest caliber magnum handguns, shotgun slugs, and especially large caliber rifles have failed to immediately end a fight by means of incapacitation or death.

So if anyone could provide links to some articles involving cases in which a criminal took a center mass blast from big bore magnum handguns, shotgun slugs, or big bore rifles yet persisted in attacking.
Honestly, that would be an eye-opening experience.

That being said, it is to my understanding that the closest thing to a one-shot-stop which can be had without scoring a direct hit to the brainstem is a shot to the pelvis with a bullet powerful enough to break it, because obviously this makes them physically incapable of standing/walking.

There is no such thing as a one-shot stop, unless the bullet penetrates the cranium or severs the spinal column.

A center mass shot results in a stomach wound, which, while painful, need not incapacitate a determined attacker.

A shot that breaks the pelvis puts the bad guy on the ground, but he can still empty his magazine into you.

A shot to the heart or aorta is close to a one-shot stop, but they still have 10 or 15 seconds in which they can do nasty things to you, like empty their magazine into you.

A shot through the heart with a .500 S&W Magnum doesn't make you any deader, any quicker, than a shot through the heart with a 9mm FMJ. How could it? It's a hole in the heart either way.

Once you quit thinking about "energy" and "ballistics" and start studying physiology, much becomes clear.

Echo40 · #**117** 10-10-2019, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Univibe

-SNIP-

A shot through the heart with a .500 S&W Magnum doesn't make you any deader, any quicker, than a shot through the heart with a 9mm FMJ. How could it? It's a hole in the heart either way.

Once you quit thinking about "energy" and "ballistics" and start studying physiology, much becomes clear.

Would you mind posting some links to verify this?

You've spoken of actual street data verifying your claims before, so surely you must have some actual verification comparing a shot to the heart with a .500 S&W Magnum JHP and a 9mm Luger FMJ, right?

Because I would sincerely like to read an article detailing such a comparison.

Please enlighten me.

Groo01 · #**118** 10-10-2019, 04:08 PM

Groo here
Univibe is correct in a way.
Total blood pressure loss will cause unconscienceness in 8 to 10 sec
Regardless of the amount of damage [o2 left in the brain] done to the body.[ double tap/full auto/ buck shot -same-same]
Shot to the CNS is lights out.
BUT the third stop is a mental one [aka "I quit" , "I been shot" , "No mas" etc] .
This is usually caused by shock to the system aka Pain...
It can't be measured, or counted on but is the one that most often works.
We are a product of millions of years of natural selection and can withstand a great deal more damage [at least in the short term] then most would think.
The numbers from the 1990s I was taught were:
less than 1% of the people shot at were hit [pistol] less than 1% of those had a life threating wound, [aka could not be fixed with bandage]
less than 1% of those died.
And of the ones shot in the heart --- 1/3 made a full recovery.
SO -- that "I give up!" thing must be working...

29aholic · #**119** 10-10-2019, 04:18 PM

In the 8 to 10 seconds it takes to lose conscious a lot of damage can be done. Especially when you figure in shock.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Farmer17 · #**120** 10-10-2019, 05:35 PM

For the center mass/chest hit with 12 gauge double OO buck it’s darn near always a one shot stop but I have heard of one case where it wasn’t but I don’t know how accurate the data is.

nojeffdude · #**121** 10-10-2019, 08:24 PM

I recently traded in my S&W 40 Shield 2.0 for a 357 Wheelgun. There was nothing wrong with the 40, it was probably just me due to arthritis, however, the recoil really would start arthur to mis-behaving, yet my 9 mm Shield never has! I recently just bought a Glock-22 40cal at a Gun Show. I love it! There is zero recoil and it just flat out whups that 40 Shield...I hate to admit that but its true, arthur hasn't acted up either.

Echo40 · #**122** 10-10-2019, 10:46 PM

Folks have a weird habit of splitting hairs when it comes to survival. What difference does it make whether a stop is psychological or physiological?

What really matters is results, so regardless of whether it be due to incapacitating physiological damage to vital organs or just a potent combination of pain and fear, if one particular cartridge has a higher volume of stopping a threat than others, then that's all that really matters.

In other words, even if factually speaking, more thugs cease attacking someone with say a .357 Magnum than a 9mm Luger simply because the gun emits a more intimidating muzzle flash and report when fired, what difference does it make?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farmer17

For the center mass/chest hit with 12 gauge double OO buck it’s darn near always a one shot stop but I have heard of one case where it wasn’t but I don’t know how accurate the data is.

Which brings me to my next point, another thing folks have a weird habit of doing when it comes to self-defense is expecting that every last thug on Earth is under the influence of narcotics so strong that their ability to feel pain is inhibited, which while that may be a possibility, there's always one vital factor or perhaps some misunderstanding at work here.
While certain narcotics can indeed inhibit pain, fear is another factor, and I have personally had the misfortune of being exposed to enough people who were either high or suffering from withdrawal symptoms to safely say that more often than not, druggies are jumpy, scare extremely easily, and are often completely paranoid. As a result, I am confident that getting shreaded to bits by buckshot would likely be psychologically traumatic enough for them that however many seconds they may have left to live, they're probably too freaked out by the sight of all their structurally superfluous new orifices leaking vital fluid at an alarming rate to be in a state of mind to continue attacking.

Furthermore, folks who are strung out on drugs usually have an elevated heart rate and blood pressure by default, so you can imagine how much faster their heart would be going during a violent confrontation, especially ones in which bullets are flying in their direction, and even more so once they've been shot, ergo while a normal human being might theoretically be able to to remain physically active for a moment after a bullet has torn through their heart, it would seem highly likely that said length of time would be considerably less for one who's heart is beating a mile a minute.

Last but certainly not least, I would like to once again request detailed, verifiable accounts of these situations in which someone was shot through the heart, yet kept on attacking, essentially ones in which the attacker remained active long enough to actually inflict significant bodily harm to their intended victim before succumbing to their wounds.

Honestly, I'm hearing a lot of "ifs and buts" here, but so far nobody has presented any evidence to support these ifs and/or buts. So unless you've actually got something to support these claims beyond words, please refrain from making any further bold statements like how 9mm FMJ is just as good or better than larger caliber expanding bullets, let alone a barrage of bullets of equal size such as a 000 Buck shotshell.

10mm_Shooter · #**123** 10-11-2019, 08:44 AM

No you don't need a .40...… but you do need a 10mm

1775usmarine · #**124** 10-11-2019, 12:22 PM

Umm for me it now is since I acquired a CHP 4006TSW. Well just bullets or a mold as I have enough brass that probably comes out to less than a penny a piece.

URIT · #**125** 10-11-2019, 08:33 PM

The .40 S&W is a must have cartridge for me because I own ten handguns that need that cartridge.

MyDads38 · #**126** 10-12-2019, 09:53 AM

A must have? No. I never wanted a 40 cal, since I had 9mm and 45 auto's. But at one point I wanted something different. So I traded a Ruger 9mm for a new S&W SD40VE. That was the start/beginning lol. I now have 4 - 40 cal handguns. It's not my favorite caliber to shoot, but I shoot it as well as my other calibers.

Biggfoot44 · #**127** 10-13-2019, 08:26 PM

When .40 was first invented, I considered it a pointless political compromise, to fill a non-existent gap . Subsequently it has " execeeded my initial expectations " . ( Not meaning it was superior , but rather that it turned out to be an additional viable option .) I was quite confident in the capabilities of 9x19 , * with ammo of my choosing * , and wasn't stressed over the capacity of .45acp .

The arguments about not dealing with an additional ctg has a flip side . During the periodic ammunition panics , the most popular cals, are also the first to disappear off of the shelves . During the most recent shortage , in many regions, .40, and .357Sig were available long after supplies of 9mm, .45acp, and .38spl were cleaned out . ( And for those who plan for reloading to be their backstop against shortages , remember that primers disappered as quickly as popular loaded ammo .

But with the market fluctuations of the moment , good quality .40 pistols are available at dirt cheap prices .

The best thing about .40 to me, is that with a conversion bbl in my 10mm , .40 is readily available cheap , mild plinking ammo .

KF7JA · #**128** 10-13-2019, 09:17 PM

I have a S&W M&P .40 compact 4” barrel. I bought a 9mm barrel for it for $50. I have less than $100 into it not counting the extra magazines. I shoot 9mm at the range due to cost and carry the .40. It seems like a good combination.

kraynky · #**129** 10-13-2019, 09:56 PM

I just made a trade on a whim, that landed me a .40 Sig P229 with box & a couple of mags. I've owned 40's before, and never disliked any of them. (well, maybe that Glock 27, it had a very "easy to engage trigger", and no safety).

However, the thing that made me trade for this one, was the DAK trigger. I've heard pros & cons on it, but decided to find out myself. So far I like it just fine, although I do wish it had a safety.

I'll take advantage of every good deal I see on a .40 while they're on the downslope. It's a very capable round, and my caliber of choice between a 9mm & a .40 S&W.

otis24 · #**130** 10-13-2019, 10:28 PM

I think the .40 is a good round. However, I also think that the advancement in ammo design had negated many advantages of one caliber over another. If the cost and availability of .40 caliber ammo was comparable to 9mm, I would probably own a .40. But, the increased cost alone prohibits me from choosing that caliber over 9mm.

ozzy335 · #**131** 10-13-2019, 10:40 PM

My answer would be no.

I have several 9mm (don't like them but ya gotta admit they is cheap to feed) and I have two Smith E series Smith .45's that I really LOVE. However, I'm a revolver shooter and I'm nuts about my Smith revolver collection.

The other day, while at the Ft. Worth Gun Show, I saw a Smith M&P in .40 brand new and could not pass up the price. The gun I wanted to buy was way over my budget and the darn fool that ran that table was really hard to get along with. One table over, I got the M&P in .40 for way under what I went to the show to spend. A really nice shooter for a great price and the folks that ran the table fell all over themselves to take my check.

Shooting the darn thing a few times, I was really surprised how much I liked it. Accurate as all get out. First shot was dead in the bull!

Now the gun is not my two prize E series Smith's and it sure as thunder not my trusted 36, 37, 19, or 28 Smiths. All of them are after my own heart. But the gun shoots like a Smith, and was a great price. How can you argue with that?

Not a 'must have' anyway you wish to cut the pie. But one I really do enjoy, and would carry to defend those I love any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

Bob Ft. Worth, TX

jim lock · #**132** 10-14-2019, 10:27 AM

Back to recent reply concerning the importance of sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control. Take a look at Hey Jackass.com and look at statistics of shootings in Chicago. Very interesting.

686-380 · #**133** 10-14-2019, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kraynky

I just made a trade on a whim, that landed me a .40 Sig P229 with box & a couple of mags. I've owned 40's before, and never disliked any of them. (well, maybe that Glock 27, it had a very "easy to engage trigger", and no safety).

However, the thing that made me trade for this one, was the DAK trigger. I've heard pros & cons on it, but decided to find out myself. So far I like it just fine, although I do wish it had a safety.

I'll take advantage of every good deal I see on a .40 while they're on the downslope. It's a very capable round, and my caliber of choice between a 9mm & a .40 S&W.

Most of the time, my 224 is my EDC. IMO the DAK trigger eliminates the need for a safety. The sturdy frame absorbs a lot of the recoil.

I went browsing for .40s, as a result of this thread. I didn't see any deals I couldn't live without. The expensive models haven't come down in price that much.

eb07 · #**134** 10-14-2019, 11:23 AM

IMHO as a reloader, 10mm is a must have cartridge.40 S&W is a compromise.

Univibe · #**135** 10-15-2019, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eb07

IMHO as a reloader, 10mm is a must have cartridge.40 S&W is a compromise.

This.

If you have a 10mm, you can load down to FBI lite spec, which is only about 75 fps faster than .40; virtually the same.

Or you can change to a slower powder and make serious 10mm stuff.

Remington 10mm ammo = FBI Lite
Sig 10mm ammo = 10mm power.

JohnHL · #**136** 10-15-2019, 04:58 PM

ABSOLUTELY!!!

Not since the debut of the 357 Magnum in the mid 1930s, has a "new" handgun cartridge had such a profound and widespread effect on Law Enforcement and the civilian shooting population.

It wasn't the "wonder nine" (found lacking) that finally replaced the 357 Mag revolver with a semi-auto in the holsters of America's LEOs.

It was the 40 S&W.

And the rest of America followed.

Not owning a 40 S&W is like not owning a 9mm or a 45.

The 40 S&W has been THAT historically significant.

John

ISCS Yoda · #**137** 10-15-2019, 05:47 PM

I like it.

In my opinion here is no such thing as a must have cartridge. The .40 S&W answered a question that nobody asked but, fine, it works, if you like it, buy it. .357 SIG is no different as far as I am concerned. After the small center fire pistol cartridges starting with .25 ACP, then .32 varieties, then .380s, then 9mm, then .45, it seems to me that those basic calibers solve every problem you could come up with. 10mm is very specialized and its different in many ways but .40 S&W not so much.

YMMV

And I can see from the reply right before mine that the YMMV is a definite fact. I see no historic wonderment in the .40 whatsoever and I wonder who even uses it these days but I could be wrong.

sodacan · #**138** 10-15-2019, 06:11 PM

The only reason to own a 40 is that you can buy guns chambered for it really cheaply right now. Other than that, IMO, there's no reason to own one. I never owned one because I shoot a lot of 9mm and 45acp and always thought that the would the 45 would be adequate if needed for self defense. Also , the ammo is much more expensive than the other two. I always looked at it like the 41 magnum--the solution to a problem that didn't exist.

amd6547 · #**139** 10-21-2019, 03:40 PM

I've been a 9mm fan since before there was a 10mm, or a .40.
But the deals on 40's couldn't be ignored, so I bought a Gen4 G22. Described by the vender as "very good", it turned out to be like new. Not bad, for $319, including night sights.
At the range, I found it shot about the same as my Glock 17.
I enjoyed shooting it so much, it became my house pistol.

Turn4811 · #**140** 10-21-2019, 07:47 PM

I had a 357Sig with a 40 conversion. I shot less than 250 round through the 40. I had a ball with the 357Sig. There was a lot I could do on the loading bench with 357Sig. That gun was one I should have kept.

I keep looking for a stupid cheap police trade-ins in 357Sig/40 and 10mm just to round out available calibers.

Golphin · #**141** 10-21-2019, 08:15 PM

I don't know if you need a 40 but I don't. I have 223, 9mm, 45acp and 38/357 and don't own dies for 40 ammo so I know I don't need that pistol round.

Echo40 · #**142** 10-21-2019, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amd6547

I've been a 9mm fan since before there was a 10mm, or a .40.
But the deals on 40's couldn't be ignored, so I bought a Gen4 G22. Described by the vender as "very good", it turned out to be like new. Not bad, for $319, including night sights.
At the range, I found it shot about the same as my Glock 17.
I enjoyed shooting it so much, it became my house pistol.

For the longest time I actually thought that there were no .40 S&W deals in my area, but it turns out that either they just took longer to show up here or were just so darn good that everyone was snatching them up before I could get to them because a couple weeks ago I found a LNiB SW40VE at my LGS for $199, and I jumped on it immediately.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, regardless of what anybody's feelings may be regarding the .40 S&W cartridge, you'd have to be a total fool not to take advantage of these deals, especially considering just how easily a .40cal pistol can be converted to 9mm Luger or .357 SIG.

BAM-BAM · #**143** 10-21-2019, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrrifleman

Please believe me, I am NOT trying to resurrect a "which is better" thread, I am trying to spark an informed conversation in trying to decide whether a handgun capable of firing the 40 S&W should be in my future.

I realize that the 40S&W development was somewhat a parody of Goldilocks and the Three Bears: the 9mm was not enough, the 45 was too much, and the 40 was just right! I have the opportunity to get a Sig 229 at a decent price, and it is a metal frame, not polymer. Other than price and the fact that it is a Sig, it can easily be converted to 357 Sig.

Realistically, I don't need a 40, since I have both 9s and 45s which I can handle competently. If I need to make a 40 something hole, I have a 41 Magnum. If a need a flat shooting hotrod, I have 357 Magnums. All of my firearm purchases are mission driven, but I already have handguns in calibers capable of over-shadowing a 40 S&W or a 357 Sig.

While I would like a metal frame Sig, I don't need a 40 S&W or a 357 Sig. Could anyone help me shed some light on why I should purchase a 40 S&W?

Thanks in advance for your opinions!

When the .40 and .357 sig came out in the 1990s I passed on both being already heavily into both 9mm and .45s over the prior 20 years .... and feeling that both calibers were answers to questions that didn't need answering....................................

During the last gun/ammo crisis I bought a lightly used Sig 229 with both a .40S&W and .357sig barrel with 4 magazines ( I added 2 more) to cover my SHTF needs. All the above is still in my safe, unfired in the past 6 years........ with about 500 rounds of .40 and .357sig ammo....... just in case.

Gene L · #**144** 10-21-2019, 11:54 PM

Not a Must Have round, but I carried one for a pretty long time. I didn't find the recoil all that excessive. My Department changed to 9mm some time after I retired, because it was time to replace the Glocks we had, and .40 ammo was increasingly hard to find on government contracts, which we were bound by.

It's a good round, but not irreplaceable.

A long part of my LEO experience in the early years, we didn't have access to rifles. We had shotguns and .38 special revolvers, but I can't remember showing one. There was no SWAT team then, and the bad guys weren't as well armed as they are today. When I was Chief Deputy of my last agency, I armed my guys with patrol rifles because I don't like shotguns very much and do like rifles. We were one of the first in GA to do so..****ger Mini 14s, which were fine at typical cop ranges. At the time, the Rugers weren't all that more expensive than SKSs, which because of budget restrictions, we considered, but rejected. We paid $300 each for the Rugers. Our first training with the rifles was on 9/11. Someone had a unit FM radio on and at first I thought it was an accident...then the second plane struck.

We (my former agency) now issues ARs. The Sheriff decided to let individual deputies buy the surplus Mini 14 rifles for what we paid for them, and I bought an excellent one. A good deal for us, and a good deal for the treasury, since a trade-in would probably have bought half that price.

As for stopping power, it depends on a couple of things...shot placement and bad guy motivation. There was a few months ago a shooting in Athens, GA, where I worked formerly. It was a textbook shooting, the bad guy didn't go out but did go down with the first shots, but got up and attacked with a knife. Where he was terminated by a very good shot.

Here's a video;

GRAPHIC: Video shows officers pleading with armed man before shooting

mi2600 · #**145** 10-21-2019, 11:57 PM

I don't really have a dog in this fight.
I already load 20+ calibers and I'm not space-restricted for my hobbies. So, when I found a 4.25" Beretta 96 (with grip laser) for $300 I thought,"Why not". Brass is dirt cheap and cast bullets also fit my 38-40s. What's not to like?

Univibe · #**146** 11-15-2019, 06:03 AM

The .40 was solution to a non existent problem that arose when special agent Dove shot Michael Platt. It should never have been born. Won't do a thing that 8mm won't do, and costs more, kicks harder, has less capacity, and can increase gun wear. Avoid it.

Same with the 45 ACP. Didn't kill Moros any deader than a 38.

crazyphil · #**147** 11-18-2019, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredj338

First you have to believe in the one shot stop mythology, everything has failed at one time or another with solid COM hits. All handgun rds, all 12ga loads & many rifle rounds have all failed to deliver a one shot stop at some point. Even if the OSS were true, one still has to be able to deliver the solid COM hit. A G22 is a manageable pistol for that, a G27, not so much. Everything is bullet & shot placement specific. A good 9mm JHP is better than a mediocre 40 JHP or even 45. So it comes back to what you can deliver fast accurate good hits with.

That's why it's 97% and not 100%

jupiter1 · #**148** 11-20-2019, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Univibe

The .40 was solution to a non existent problem that arose when special agent Dove shot Michael Platt. It should never have been born. Won't do a thing that 8mm won't do, and costs more, kicks harder, has less capacity, and can increase gun wear. Avoid it.

Same with the 45 ACP. Didn't kill Moros any deader than a 38.

It's a bit ironic but if the agent shot Platt with a 9mm FMJ or a .38 RNL, there would have been sufficient penetration to pass through the heart instead of stopping just short of it. The expansion of the 9mm silvertip, and any effect of a temporary cavity from bullet expansion, didn't stop him. Sufficient penetration from a non deforming bullet may have ended that fight.

The result would have been the same with a similarly expanding .40 bullet that didn't penetrate far enough.

biku324 · #**149** 11-20-2019, 03:20 PM

OMG! Is this thread STILL going on???

Mike, SC Hunter · #**150** 11-20-2019, 06:46 PM

The whole world is going after the 9mm squirt guns like most all LEO............REMEMBER the Miami shoot out with the police and FBI..........EVERYBODY was RUNNING AWAY from the 9mm........Thus the 40 came out and ruled the roost for 25 years.........People forget and people most always follow the one that squawks the loudest. Reckon BS sells.