Military FMJ - 9/38/45 , a question

Okay, so the 'standard' 9mm ball has been 115gr, and I guess now some 124gr in some areas. SAME standard in LE, for the most part, save for a silly decade of flirtation with sub-sonic 147 in LE.

Then, 230gr as the original ACP, with some LE going for faster/lighter w 185.

Mil-Spec .38 is 130gr, and yet 158gr dominated in LE for quite awhile.
I realize now, especially with the advent of PlusP, and 'snub-biased' loads, that 125/130 is a contender.

Does anyone know why LE went with such heavier bullets than the military?

VictorLouis said:

Okay, so the 'standard' 9mm ball has been 115gr, and I guess now some 124gr in some areas. SAME standard in LE, for the most part, save for a silly decade of flirtation with sub-sonic 147 in LE.

Then, 230gr as the original ACP, with some LE going for faster/lighter w 185.

Mil-Spec .38 is 130gr, and yet 158gr dominated in LE for quite awhile.
I realize now, especially with the advent of PlusP, and 'snub-biased' loads, that 125/130 is a contender.

Does anyone know why LE went with such heavier bullets than the military?

Click to expand...

The order above is a little off in places (please correct me if I am wrong).

The original 9mm Parabellum load by Georg Luger was a 123-4 grain fmj (actually a truncated cone at first, then the round-nose we are familiar with). This was almost immediately followed by the similar 115 grain fmj, which had a slight concavity in the base. These two weights settled down to be the majority of 9mm Parabellums for the next century and are still the most common.

During the period of early Browning-designed .45 autos (beginning in 1905), the cartridge was loaded with a 200 grain fmj. By the time of the 1911, someone decided that a little more weight at a slightly lower velocity was a better choice and we got the 230 grain fmj we know today still. The only other widespread loading in the days before hollowpoints became common in autopistols was a 185 grain lightweight swc for bulls-eye target shooting.

The .38 Smith and Wesson Special was a VERY successful attempt to improve on several .38 rounds of the time. While still having the long case of a black-powder round, the engineers decided to both slightly increase the powder charge and the bullet weight (the older .38 S&W had a 145 grain (usually!)). The volume available for propellant went from .034 to .063 cubic inches and (although they didn't know it at the time), made possible the enventual .357 Magnum. For decades, the standard loading was a 158 grain plain lead or fmj (for the military) bullet, with a 148 grain wadcutter for target shooters. During the 1950s, the military asked for a lighter load to avoid straining some lightweight revolvers issued to pilots. The ammunition companies simply took an existing 130 grain fmj bullet that they had been loading for years in the .38ACP and later .38 Super ACP Browning designed cartridges and used it in the .38 Special loads for the military. This became the standard load for the services, and eventually pushed the 158 grain lead bullet out as the common cheap round for plinking and practice.

I've focused on common loadings. There have always been exceptions.

Early hollowpoint bullets needed all the help they could get. This was why designers in the 60s and 70s used lighter bullet weights (especially in the .45 and .38).

Hope this helps!

Another factor to consider is that very few handguns were offered with adjustable sights prior to the 1960's or so. Handguns with fixed sights are typically regulated at the factory to shoot a "standard" load to point of aim at a fixed distance (frequently 25 yards or so). Changes in ammunition (heavier or lighter bullets, higher or lower velocities, etc) can make a major difference in point of impact compared to point of aim.

I remember when I was a young cop in the early 1970's, lots of guys shot their range qualifications with 148-grain wadcutter .38 Special ammo, then loaded up .357 magnum hollow-points for duty use. POI vs. POA can be as much as a foot different at 25 yards.

In Vietnam I carried a US M1911A-1 .45 caliber pistol with 230-grain FMJ ammo, as did thousands of other GI's for many decades. I have seen what that combination will do in combat. I do not recall a single customer complaint. Since then I have seen and heard of many people having all sorts of problems because they wanted to use different bullet weights and types (usually much lighter hollow-points at higher velocities), everything from feeding problems, ejection problems, and certainly accuracy (POI vs. POA) issues.

Reliability and accuracy are the primary considerations in a defensive handgun/ammunition selection. Everything else is secondary.

Great points made by the above posters. I will add to that by saying non-expanding bullets are primarily used by the military, so heavier bullet weight makes sense, as over penetration is seldom a concern on the battle field.

In the civilian / LE market, over penetration is a concern, and expanding bullets are allowed, and preferred, as they tend to increase stopping power, and limit penetration. Traditionally that has meant lighter weight bullets at higher velocities so as to insure expansion. Todays cutting edge HP bullets expand very reliably, and heavier weights are gaining again in popularity, as there is little down side, and they do tend to "shoot to the sights" in a lot of traditional calibers.

Larry

Darkenfast said:

T

Hope this helps!

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Consider me SCHOOLED, Sir !

Thanks.

The military 38 special load was a FMJ 130gr bullet used in a Aluminum light weight revolver for pilots,to keep the weight down
but also lower pressures, due to the parts used in the weapon, made it a very POOR load when used in the Korean war, due to the low velocity.

All Military bullets needed to be a FMJ, round nose design....
since NATO did not allow the use of JHP back in the 40's.

As mentioned.....
the ability of the round to function was #1 on the list.

Nevada Ed said:

All Military bullets needed to be a FMJ, round nose design....
since NATO did not allow the use of JHP back in the 40's.

.

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NATO didn't have much say about anything in the Forties,
since they didn't exist until April, 1949.

The actual prohibition against expanding small arms slugs
is part of the Hague Convention of 1899...

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp

The military 38 special load was a FMJ 130gr bullet used in a Aluminum light weight revolver....

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This was the 1950s M41 load. There were high velocity loadings available, e.g. the PGU-12B which had a 130 grain FMC bullet. During the 1940s I think the 158 grain bullet in both round nose lead (training) and FMJ was the only one used in .38 Special.

more. nice.

Isn't the standard NATO 9mm 124 grain?

Sorting through some odds and ends today I found a few 38 Special, 158gn FMJ FA 43 cartridges. Pretty safe bet this is the WW2 era loading for the US versions of the Victorys.

VictorLouis said:

Okay, so the 'standard' 9mm ball has been 115gr, and I guess now some 124gr in some areas. SAME standard in LE, for the most part, save for a silly decade of flirtation with sub-sonic 147 in LE.

Does anyone know why LE went with such heavier bullets than the military?

Click to expand...

In 1988, I attended Marine Corps Security Force Battalion School (Lant) in Va. All of the 9MM that we fired was 147 grain subsonic. We were informed this was developed for the Corps for use in the HK MP5's that were used by the Battalion.

Wow, how time flies by..........

I was on Okie when Kennedy was shot.......
my children are now 45 years old.......
that new boat that I bought is now 12 years old.

Hard to believe it is already April 12th...........

Mercy.

transit said:

Isn't the standard NATO 9mm 124 grain?

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Yes.However115 is also NATO standard. 5.56 has several NATO standards, 55 grain , 62 grain ect. I think the same is true in 12 gauge, buckshot, breaching loads, and even a bird shot.