I'm not trying to set myself up as the "needs" czar. Your point about competitive shooters quite right, but they represent a tiny minority of gun owners, even on this forum. I'm just suggesting that maybe many need (ha!) to stop and think for a minute before going out and buying ammo at grossly inflated prices. Gun owners are like everyone else, they can get swept up in the "panic" (it's not actually a panic, obviously) when if they took a step back and looked at the longer game they would say, "Nah, this is nuts, I don't need to partake."

On "taking a step back" let me give you another example. In the early fall of 2005 gas prices spiked to over $4/gallon across much of the US. All of a sudden you couldn't buy a Prius, Civic or a Corolla at MSRP, they all had markups slapped on by dealers, I seem to recall that $3k was not uncommon on the Prius. I had coworkers rushing out and spending $4k-$8k on tired small cars just so filling up at the pump was cheaper. However, none of them got rid of their pickups or V8 SUVs, so I asked them:

"How many miles/years will you have to drive to make up those thousands of dollars your just spent buying, registering and insuring that dog of a small car you just bought for stupid money? Oh, and aren't you still paying $300/year in registration and $900/year in insurance for that truck you rarely use?"

(Yeah, I'm not known for my subtlety)

You could see the little wheels going round in their heads and the "oh ****" look creeping across their faces. Almost all came up with the same lame answer: "You can't look at it like that." ROFLMAO!!!!! I think there was one who said that the high prices were here to stay, the new normal.

Almost funnier were those who accused me of having inside information on gas prices because I'd traded a Tahoe for a new model Xterra just 6 weeks before the gas price spike. I just laughed and said "Sorry, but you can't borrow my crystal ball."

TL;DR version: we can run with the herd, but it doesn't necessarily mean we are moving in the right direction.

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Release the Kraken

Case in point:
I'm in line at a retail outlet the other day overhearing these people talking. They've got all their friends there buying the store's per customer limit then bragging about how much profit they're making scalping it online.

Then later that very same day I'm talking to a little gun shop owner in East Gish and she's telling me how she can't get ammo for her customers. We're talking about underprivileged people with no credit cards or access to the internet and they rely on their little gun shop down the road for ammo and gun supplies.

Yes, the true worth of anything is what someone is willing to pay and yes, we should all be prepared for a shortage but what about the millions of people that live paycheck to paycheck just barely feeding their families. When scalpers take advantage of a crisis like we're currently in with ammo it's the underprivileged that get hurt the most. And that's just wrong.

If people are literally lining up to pay for it, you’re not ripping anyone off.

Nobody’s holding a gun to their head and making them pay it.

Well then, Tom. The right thing to do is to offer your guns and ammo for sale to the underprivileged at 2017 prices. That'll certainly be good for all of those ethical folks.

I can't decide if I should call "those ethical folks" anti-capitalists or pro-socialists.

Maybe just call them good people

I was taught the Golden Rule when I was growing up but it has changed since then. It's now "Do it to them before they do it to you".

I find it hard to believe that there are people that don't have access to the internet some way or the other. I was jerked up dirt poor and we didn't have a phone but a neighbor did and they would make a call for us.
Why do the millions of people that live paycheck to paycheck need a bunch of ammo. I was out of work one time for over a year and 1 box of ammo was more than enough to get me through. I don't think I shot over 10 times in that year. Even at $2.00 a shot that's only $20. a year. Larry

1) so you are in line buying with those dirty scalpers first thing in the morning.
2) why aren’t the underprivileged in line with you and the scalpers first thing in the morning? Probably because they haven’t come out of their high or drunken stupor from the previous night- but that is another story.
3) why isn’t the woman from East Gish in line with you and the scalpers every morning trying to buy ammo? Rumor is you and your scalper friends are there first thing in the morning and I don’t know of a single gun shop that opens before 10:00 a.m.
4) why isn’t the owner of said East Gish store using her credit card to buy ammo online to help her underprivileged customers.
5) why are poor underprivileged people worried about guns and ammo when the should be focusing on food and shelter first. You know priorities. If you don’t have a CC why aren’t they using their bank or govt welfare card?
There are many ways to do things besides whine about some hustler.

LIKE, LIKE, LIKE!!!!!!!!!!!

Haters are gonna hate is all I can say. Have fun hatin each other. I'm out.

Gimme a BREAK! 8 million new gun owners who bought their first gun in the last year has got to include a lot of young folks just trying to be able to protect themselves and their families. Not everyone who is just barely getting by is living on welfare. There has been this thing called a pandemic that has closed a lot of small businesses and put a lot of people out of work - maybe you guys have heard about it?

And as far as one box of ammo being enough to "get by", is that the level of shooting and practice you guys think is appropriate for a new gun owner to become familiar and proficient and SAFE with their new weapon? I see a lot of people pontificating about how anybody who has/carries a gun for self defense darn well better practice with it. How the heck do you propose some young guy with a family do that, when he's struggling to earn enough of a living to just get by, due to the current economic downturn, when scalpers are buying up all the ammo and reselling it for $1-$2 a round?

I think we've got a lot of well-off older people around here who are so comfortable in their own situation that they lack any empathy for those not so well situated who are struggling right now. The need for self defense has never been greater, and a lot of people seem to have forgot what it is like to be just barely getting by.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

I see used and I do mean used brass for sale in crazy little batches. There will be 14- 308s, 27-9mms , 8- 300 mags, ect. The price $25 and shipping, that’s $8.50. There are hammer heads buying this stuff. What do they do treat component inventory like milk. You get some more when you run out?
I just saw a rifle of common variety in pretty well ragged condition for a little less than a new one. Hunting rifles and shotguns aren’t that hard to come by. I don’t like to be scalped but it’s a free country (yet) and you can put whatever price makes you happy. Supply and Demand.

*shrug*

In 2013, that was me. I was relatively new to firearm ownership, and hadn’t experienced one of our panics yet. When prices went to the moon, and availability dropped dramatically I got confused. Then mad. Then determined to not be in that position again.

It taught me something. Shortages don’t affect me now. The new gun owners now have an opportunity to learn from their current situation. From all the whining I’m hearing, it seems as if some of y’all still haven’t learned your lesson.

These panics keep happening. It’s a cycle. When the insanely expensive prices come back down (and they WILL) ... THEN buy a good supply so that your stockpile can last you through the next panic. (Or two) That way, you won’t be left without a chair when the music stops.

I don’t buy at these insane prices, so why should I care if others who chose not to prepare are now forced to? I’m not going to cry for their lack of foresight. The newbies will learn from this, or they won’t.

This happens all the time, and internet sales is the main culprit. If people could not buy ammo online, this would not be happening the same way. There would be shortages, but not to this extent.

Like said above, not buying it would shut down this sort of thing.

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USMC 83'-87', NRA Member.

I can't get up early and stand in line 3 mornings a week waiting on a truck to deliver ammo that maybe i can use. 9mm is only caliber i don't reload for may start if that is a option in a couple years.If i had to pay scalpers or pay someone to stand in line to get ammo i would be cutting way back on shooting.

You're preaching to the choir. I learned this lesson long ago, bought plenty when it was cheap, and am in need of absolutely NOTHING. I probably have enough ammo and components to last me the rest of my life. So your "whining" comment isn't relative to me or my situation at all.

HOWEVER, the fact that I don't need anything doesn't keep me from recognizing and speaking out when I see others in our own community stabbing their fellow gun enthusiasts in the back. I'm not one to adopt a "let them eat cake" attitude about something I view as wrong - even if it doesn't have a direct effect on me personally. I'm kinda' funny that way.

The "I've got mine so to hell with the rest of you" attitude is a big part of what is wrong with the world IMO.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

This may not be an issue much longer. There are those on the left in high places who have vowed to put an end to internet sales of guns, gun parts, and ammo.

Are you in favor of that?

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

A poll would be interesting right about now, as it looks to me like our "seasoned" members are against scalping and the scalpers (who seem to be mostly newer members) think it's an honorable way to make a living.

Personally, I kinda miss the old days.

LOL, you noticed that too, huh? So is it a chicken or the egg situation?

People are comfortable with the idea of charging other gun owners 300% or 400% markups so they become scalpers?

Or people who are scalping others convince themselves it is OK to make obscene profits off a shortage, and even prolong the shortage to profit off others for as long as they can?

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

So I guess we then need to go the California route where you have to show proof that you own a certain caliber and then are limited in the amount that you can buy over a period of time for that caliber only and you can only buy from State licensed sellers.

That would certainly cut down on private resale and take away all incentive to buy more than someone other than yourself thinks you need to have or be allowed to buy.

Then if we get into a shortage of available firearms, we can expanded this to gun purchase limits and price restrictions on the amount a firearm cam be resold for. 50% over original MSRP should sound good to everyone, right.

Why shouldn't these new buyers have the opportunity to buy that 1980 Model 29 for $500 when you bought it for $325 some 40 years ago and it sits in someone's safe with another dozen Model 27 and 28 that are rarely used?

In fact, the Government should make owners report numbers and types of firearms owned and quantities of ammunition so they can be equally redistributed among poor people when crisis times as these hit. No one needs a dozen Model 36 or Model 10 or 3rd Gen bottom feeders when there are others that have none.

Exactly. They have a set mark up and nothing changed for them. 10-15% price increase passed on to the consumer.

I have it from someone who knows what ammo costs are to LE agencies. 9 mm ammo is now about 0.24/rd for their contracted ammo. Distributors aren't in business to loose money. When you see 124 ball for 0.30/rd or more the middle man (LGS) will be sending his kids to college on your dime. Just the facts ma'am.

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That's just somebody talkin.

The extent to which many people in this thread feel that their emotional need for ammo prices to be some amount THEY declare is "moral", and then think that their preferred price should somehow govern the market is completely cringe-worthy. Nobody owes you ****. To think people "should be" doing otherwise is the same way some of the worst entitled people think.

People making a profit because they are hustling to make it to an LGS to find a good deal? Out-hustle them. Suggesting that those who are participating in legal commerce are immoral is simply your opinion. Suggesting we should use another type of system is anti-free market.

Not preferred price. 15% markup over cost.

The gouger LGS's will get their rewards when this is over. Buying ammo online is a thing. I buy all of my ammo online by the case. The online dealers will get resupplied at the same time the LGS's will. It's a brutal business but most who scalp get scalped eventually. Like you say, it's a free market. Double edge sword, cuts both ways.

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That's just somebody talkin.

Anyone got a shipped $200 case of 9’s to help a poor downtrodden brutha out? Send a PM.









mods, this is not a solicitation outside the classifieds. Just making a point.

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Sure you did

Sooooooo ... You’re mad at supply and demand?

I feel no need to sell my .38spl ammo, bought by the case with free shipping a coupla 3 years ago for close to what I paid for it.
On the other hand if someone should like to subsidize my retirement. That would be different. I bought it because I had a feeling it might come in handy. I use handloads for practice, mostly.

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

You aren't fooling anyone. You have more 9mm ammo than most stores do and you probably paid about $75 a case. Just a guess.

I have a case of 22LR (5K) unopened. IIRC it was $285.

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That's just somebody talkin.

Nope. Disappointed in people within our "community" profiteering on each other.

No better than the folks who bought up every bottle of hand sanitizer, package of disinfectant wipes, and can of Lysol etc for a 200 mile radius, and then started selling them for 500% markups on eBay and Amazon when we had the first COVID breakouts last year.

Opportunists. Profiteers. Scalpers. Whatever you want to call them - I'll stop there before I get myself in trouble for inappropriate language.

Though I actually suspect it is less people in our community and more outsiders who are doing most of it - since most scalpers on the boards I frequent seem to be the newbies.

They're generally pretty easy to spot. They make justifications for their behavior comparing the appreciation on the house I bought and made payments on, and maintained, and made improvements to, and paid taxes on for the last 3 decades to the 9mm they bought at Sportsmans when they opened the doors yesterday morning.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

No, I have none, waiting on one of the anti “scalper” crusaders to step up and sell me some.

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Sure you did

Call me a crusader if you will. At least I am consistent.

I could make several thousand dollars selling off my ammo, powder, and primers. But I won't.

I didn't buy any of it to sell. I bought them for my own use and I'll keep them for that purpose.

I can earn more money. I can't make more powder or primers so easily.

I won't contribute to the current insanity by buying anything at ridiculous prices either.

I also won't clean out the shelves when I find ammo at one of the big box stores for a reasonable price.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

You are destitute. I'd sell you some but I don't have any either. I just load what I expect to shoot next week. Bullets and primers are in short supply just like ammo. If this goes on another year I'm sunk.

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That's just somebody talkin.

Reading the various comments on here, I can see both sides of this issue.

I have plenty of ammo on hand, and haven't needed to buy any during this current situation, so what's happening doesn't really affect me.

I'm a firm believer in the free market. Sellers and buyers determine the "fair" price for a given product, and unless there's force, coercion, or deception involved, nobody has grounds to complain.

On the other hand, there's a special place in hell for people who take advantage of bad situations so they can make money off of the fears of others. Yeah, it might be legal, but it's unsavory, and a slimy way to make a buck...

MY THOUGHTS AND POSITION EXACTLY.
There are a LOT of things that are legal that are flat out WRONG. I can't control others, but I can express my opinion about what they do.
And it is just that - my opinion based on my belief system/ethics/morals/upbringing or whatever name you want to give it.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

Why can't the people that are having a hard time finding ammo buy a pellet or BB gun and use it for practice. Practice is just trigger pull and sight alignment and a BB gun will do that just as good as a center fire gun and a lot cheaper.
One box of real bullets would last a long time for self defense. Self defense ammo does not have to be super high priced stuff. Plain ball has been killing things for hundreds of years. Split a box of ammo with somebody else that can't afford a whole box.
I've been in several places that I shouldn't have been but I've never had too fire a shot in self defense. That leads me too believe that most people don't need any self defense ammo and I doubt if the rest of the people use over half a box in their life. Larry

In a Capitalist System supply and demand find their own levels.
The current situation will be with us for a long, long time. Better get used to it. We are not likely to ever return to 2019 prices and availability
I stopped shooting cartridge guns altogether several months ago except for one session using about 25 rounds of .22LR over 8 months ago. No longer practice with my carry guns either. The replacement costs of what I have on hand are scary.

Black powder guns are all I shoot now.

How's that fit with the "train with what you carry" philosophy? Do you not believe in that principle, or are you going to carry a BB gun for self defense?

Personally I haven't had to use my SD weapon either. But the fact that I haven't had to use a fire extinguisher in my home doesn't mean I don't think I should keep one handy AND know how to use it. I haven't had a flat in years either, but I still carry a full size spare in all my rigs.

Guess I'm just weird that way.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

I never said to use a BB gun for self defense. I said use one to practice sight alignment and trigger pull.
I also didn't say too not carry for self defense. I was saying that a half a box is plenty of ammo for self defense.
In the real world a pistol and the ammo in it is usually sufficient for self defense. Of course you can put in a bunch of "what ifs" and decide too get professional training and carry a belt fed too be prepared for a mob attack. What if the mob has 3 belt fed guns then you will need a tank. Larry

Yeah, I read what you said and addressed it point by point.
The point is using a BB gun to practice sight alignment and trigger pull is NOT sufficient training or realistic enough training for self defense - unless that is what you are carrying for self defense. Obviously you agree that isn't a good idea.

Do you also agree that if you are going to have a gun for self defense you should also practice USING THAT GUN? I'm not talking about professional training or machine guns. I'm talking about practicing shooting more than a half a box of ammo through a handgun you carry for self defense. Hell, most people don't even consider a new pistol to have proven itself reliable enough for self defense carry until they have put at least a couple of hundred failure free rounds through one.

Now if you are just looking at the odds of NEEDING a gun as a measure of whether or not you need ammo, then why would you not apply those same odds to things like fire extinguishers and spare tires? The obvious answer that you are dodging is that it is better to be prepared, even though these things may never be needed, because IF they are ever needed and you don't have them, you may never need them again. Just like a parachute

Let me ask you this. Do YOU carry or own a firearm for self defense - just in case you should ever need it? If so, WHY? You obviously believe the odds are that it is unnecessary. Or does that only apply to other people? If you have a gun for self defense, have you practiced with it? If so, why? If not why not?
Do you think it is necessary? Or do you think practicing with the gun you might use to defend you and yours isn't necessary?

So far your answers have sounded like you feel that actually practicing with your firearm it is either a) unnecessary, or b) that it is a luxury treserved to a privileged few who have an abundance of resources to afford today's ammo prices.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

From the get go, I have never cared for them
I will buy from Midway but much prefer local shops

I first got into this hobby at an older age in ‘12 when gifted an old Colt challenger from the family. Had no clue about ammo shortages and took some time to find any. But I never paid more than what was normal retail and never bought from private party/resellers. Over time as I added 9’s to the collection, i shot plenty and would buy plenty esp when on sale. So i could also weather times of spikes and shortages.
Last year i picked up my first sporting rifle (Sport 2) and as i did not have ammo stocked in 223 have had to pick up a little here and there. Been “lucky” to get some in the $0.45-.55 range which I am sure is higher than usual but based on what i see it going up to, well for someone new to that caliber I am fine at those prices.
And frankly as outdoor shooting in WI is seasonal for me and ranges have closed or are limited; I havent been shooting much over the past year so the rest of my stock is still ok. For practice I have been using one of those laser systems I mentioned elsewhere.
To finish up, if there is anything I learned back in the day when Beanie Babies were all the rage and the ladies in my house were collecting them...... we never bought from resellers or paid inflated prices. And I follow that thought process on ammo or anything else that can have peaks. In all seriousness I can admit that this long stretch will have me rethink my range visits, I may not rip thru hundreds of rounds each time as replenishment may not happen.

Per the FBI the average number of rounds exchanged in a gunfight is 4. The average distance is 7 yards.
So technically your average 5 shot J-frame will defend you and you will have 20% more capacity than what is used in the average gunfight.
1 box of 50 you can train 9x and have a full cylinder for defense?

Still waiting for a “moral, ethical, high road, community minded, we are the world” person to offer me a case of 9’s. Come on man!

And if you are so moral, ethical and community minded, buy all your shooting needs from the LGS, right? I mean what’s better than to support a local business in your community? Why buy ammo/guns/primer/powder online?

Your LGS doesn’t have what you need? Have them order it for you.

Oh, even the Good Thief went on Home.

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Sure you did

One post contradicts the other.

You asked me to explain and I did.

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You're shy a few manners.

Do me/we/us a favor and post those statistics from the FBI.

Thems the facts of life.

These so-called scalpers are merely using their time and efforts to make a profit because they know there are people out there that cant. And again, why shouldnt they be compensated for their time, effort, and service?

You know where its at. Some even state 3 rounds exchanged over 3 yards.

Best of luck banking on any self defense situation you find yourself in being "average".
An "average of 4 rounds could be one 1-shot stop and one where it took 7 to stop the bad guy.
I don't bank on a bad situation following the "averages" I prepare for worst case, because I ain't the lucky type.
I also practice with what I carry, not with a BB gun. My carry gun goes with me and gets shot at least a couple of magazines worth EVERY range trip.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

There's what's legal and there's what's moral. Most times I try and do what's legal and moral. Capitalism is a good thing when not abused. Greed is not. I view it like charging a fair interest rate as opposed to usury. With the fear of this country's future, that is shared by so many and largely responsible for the gun buying surge, I pretty near equate this greed by scalpers like those scalping gas and other necessities during a hurricane or other disaster. I have enough ammo, for the most part. And yes, if I personally knew a new gun owner that was in need of ammo I would give them some. As it is now I'm hesitant to do much shooting because while adequate my ammo supply isn't unlimited. I'm short on 40 but I do have brass, bullets, powder and primers. Unfortunately when I last bought primers I had to settle for Remington which isn't my favorite. I realize this conversation is pointless as those greed ones reading my post won't be at all affected by it.

100%!

Like clockwork...with every so-called 'ammo shortage' we get the sleepy complainers who were caught with their pants down (again) and refuse to admit that they were not smart enough to stock up after the last episode. Instead they blame anyone who didn't get caught with their pants down. They're among the crowd who by habit blame others for the problems that they have put on themselves....Of course that mindset comes from the 40+ years of people being told that if they have any problem it's not their fault.. it's the fault of the people who don't have the same problem.

Obvious to all are the sellers offering ammo at staggering prices to people who have made the choice to not be proactive when it comes to having a good supply of ammo on hand...but what is being ignored by the complainers are the closed ammo auctions on GB that started at a penny and ended at the price level, or higher, of what "the scalpers" are asking for...amazing what desperate buyers are WILLING TO PAY. Of course the 'penny auction' seller is automatically blamed for the high price.
As for private sales...the seller may be in need of money and looking to profit off of their wise investment, who knows? or cares?, at least they have it. It's theirs to decide what they will do with it.
What gets me is the sanctimonious nature of some who sit on their huge stash of ammo and refuse to sell it AT THEIR COST to "their fellow human being who is in need", all the while complaining about those who are kind enough to offer any ammo at all, and set at prices that people are WILLING TO PAY.
(still waiting on the high-ground crowd to take care of the gentleman who had requested a case of affordable 9mm ammo).

Having stated all that, I do have much sympathy for the young people who are just becoming of age to own a firearm. They have a legitimate gripe about current ammo costs. As for the rest (who should know by now) ..being prepared beats ignoring the possibilities of whatever may trigger an ammo shortage...every time. Some people just can't learn that.

And I only thought that a "scalper" was the barber when he gave you a bad haircut...