IMI 9MM NATO 115 FMJ +P ???

VaTom

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I only have two 9 MM pistols. A Beretta 92F and a S&W Shield (first edition). Most of my other collection consists of .38, 45, and .22 firearms. I stopped in the large modern range and gun store today just to browse. They had Fiocchi 9mm and IMI (Israeli) 9mm NATO. Both were priced at $39.95 per box. The sign indicated that the IMI was +P but that was not indicated on the box. I have never seen IMI ammo before so I asked the counter man about the velocity. He said the velocity was about 300 fps faster than regular 9mm target ammo. I didn't buy any.

I did some research when I got home and it seems that 9MM NATO labeled ammo is hotter than standard and close to +P standards.

Educate me on this. Thanks!
 
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I don't have the specs but I understand the NATO stamped ammo is loaded to a higher pressure than some US brands that can sometimes be a little anemic.
 
Sigh, there are several threads on here on that subject.

Short form:

SAAMI is the US standardizing organization for all things related to the production of firearms and ammunition. CIP is the same organization for the European market, possibly even wider authority than that.

The two organizations measure chamber pressures in different manners. so they don't directly compare. Also, until fairly recently there was a tendency in the US to slightly down load ammunition for foreign calibers produced here.

Now then, just because a regulatory body states what the maximum pressure for a given cartridge is, it DOES NOT mean that everyone loads to that pressure. Instead, ammunition is loaded to a velocity or energy specification at a pressure not to exceed the maximum.

With all that out of the way, European 9 mm ammo is generally loaded somewhat hotter than US ammo. NATO spec ammo has a pressure slightly above standard SAAMI pressure, it may or may not reach +P level. The IMI boxes aren't marked +P because they're not loaded to a US/SAAMI pressure specification.

IMHO, the 300 f/s faster claim by the sales person is hogwash-assuming the comparison isn't to some promotional ammo with the same weight bullet.
 
IMI has, or at least had, a strategic business alliance with Olin Winchester. They have essentially Winchester equipment, processes and procedures, just in Israel.

They continued making their version of Black Talon 9mm, and they make the military small arms for the IDF as well.

IMI is good stuff all around.

It is possible, but unlikely, that if it is in military boxes, it might be +P+ subgun loads. A whole bunch of crazy hot german Hirtenberg 9mm got imported here into the states back in the '90s, and it was strictly subgun only, like MP5 pistols, or Uzis. It had a special headstamp, but unless you knew what it was, serious risk of a catastrophic pistol failure.
 
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Thanks for all responses! I have about 400 rounds of 9mm on hand (pre shortage) but may buy a box of the IMI ($40 ouch) just to compare with standard 9mm. Sounds like it would be ok to shoot through the Beretta 92f and the Shield.
 
Is there an actual SAAMI specification for +P?

Yes, there is. Regular 9mm is 35,000 and +P is 38,500. SAAMI has their ammo specs online at SAAMI Standards – SAAMI .

The salesman was probably exaggerating how hot the IMI is loaded. Most +P ammo runs about 10% higher pressure than regular. For a lot of people hotter is always better. But it isn't. Guns that are designed for SAAMI spec ammo run best with SAAMI spec ammo. I will use +P in guns designed to handle it.

But I wouldn't buy ammo that produced 25% more fps and 50% more energy than regular ammo. There is no magic trick for hot ammo, it is loaded to higher pressure. I avoid very hot ammo from boutique makers like Buffalo Bore and Underwood for that reason. It will not blow up a gun in good condition but often causes malfunctions in guns designed to shoot SAAMI spec ammo. Look at the reviews in Underwood's website for their 10mm offerings and you will see many people have to change recoil and magazine springs before it will function well.
 
Genuine NATO spec 9x19mm ammo runs around 5% higher pressure than the SAAMI specified maximum for standard pressure 9x19mm. The This puts NATO 9x19mm squarely between the SAAMI specified maximum pressures for standard and +P.
 
It is all about numbers............
the standard 4" barrel 9mm is rated at..................

......... standard load................ NATO ................ +P
115 .......... 1180 .................... 1240 ................ 1300
124 .......... 1150 .................... 1188 ................ 1207
147 .......... 970 ...................... 985 ................. 1030

depending on the pistol and ammo.

The NATO ammo was made for the machine guns, so they would cycle while
the pistols used the standard rounds for their lighter pressure spec's.
 
Yes, there is. Regular 9mm is 35,000 and +P is 38,500. SAAMI has their ammo specs online at SAAMI Standards – SAAMI .

Ah, but which maximum pressure? SAAMI has 3 separate maximums, what follows are their maximums for piezo-electric pressure sensors. Maxim Average Pressure (MAP-what you quoted above) is the limit SAAMI expects US makers to produce 9 mm +P ammunition at. Then there's Maximum Probable Lot Mean, which is 39,700 psi, 2 standard deviations above MAP., which should probably be considered the actual maximum pressure. Finally followed by Maximum Probable Sample Mean of 41,500 psi. No ammunition sample should ever show a pressure above that.

A couple of other things about NATO spec ammo (the standard: STANAG 4090 is available online): there are a range of allowable bullet weights and a delivered energy standard to be produced from a 7 7/8 inch test barrel. Reaching a 400 ft/lb minimum/600 ft/lb maximum with bullets between 108 and 128 gr isn't all that tough from a barrel nearly 8 inches long.

BTW- the NATO/CIP piezo-electric pressures are given in MPa units, 230 MPa as equivalent to the 37,000 psi radial copper measurement. I think I found a rough conversion to psi, but the results are screwy, possibly due to the differences in measurement methods. About the only way we're ever going to get something close to a direct comparison is if someone fires a lot of ammo in both a NATO test barrel and in a SAAMI test barrel.

Added edit: I got really deep in the weeds on CIP pressure measurement and learned the following: SAAMI lists the 9 mm max (MAP) piezo electric pressure of 35,000 psi, CIP lists it at 34,000 psi (close to what I calculated) and that the CIP and SAAMI pressure measurement methods are indeed different. The real glitch in the works is that NATO supposedly uses neither pressure sensor method. [Right way, wrong way and the NATO way!!] So, we're back to doing a side by side test of a given lot of ammunition.
 
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I

The NATO ammo was made for the machine guns, so they would cycle while
the pistols used the standard rounds for their lighter pressure spec's.

Per the general descriptive paragraph in STANAG 4090, ammunition that meets the NATO specification is for use in sub machine guns and semi-automatic pistols. It's the standardization agreement for the production of ALL 9 mm ammunition to be used by NATO as general issue.
 
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FWIW, I've not used the IMI 115 NATO, but did purchase a couple thousand rounds of the IMI 124 grain NATO direct from the IMI store a few years ago. I've used it in various 9MM pistols and revolvers. It has been excellent in all respects. I have used a lot more of the Winchester Q4318 9MM NATO over the last 20 years or so, also excellent. Before that, I loaded 9MM 115-125 grain bullets to 1250-1300 FPS to better knock over the steel targets in some of the matches I attended. No issues with that ammo either.

I see a lot of concern expressed on the internet about using 9MM NATO, +P, +P+, etc. in one's firearms. I can only report that I've experienced no issues with the higher pressure ammo, beyond sticky extraction in one of my 9MM revolvers......ymmv
 
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