I was watching a police shooting where this female cop shot the bad guy armed with a knife 6 times and it was the 6th shot that finally brought him down.
This kind of worried me and now feel the only worthy carry gun is either my Glock 30 with a full size 13 round mag and;\or my Sig P320 full size .357 sig cartridge.
We all heard how in WWII marines shot the bad guys with .45acp and they went down like bowling pins. While ballistics may show 9mm just as effective as .45acp I have my doubts and would rather go with the larger round
Moreover, you look at a Glock 19 and my Glock 30 with a full size glock 21 magazing I got only 2 less rounds than a GLock 19
Without seeing the video or reading the coroners report, it's impossible to to know for sure which round(s) was(were) responsible for the fatal stopping shot.
Had to argue with bigger, faster, and more when it comes to handgun bullets.
I was watching a police shooting where this female cop shot the bad guy armed with a knife 6 times and it was the 6th shot that finally brought him down.
This kind of worried me and now feel the only worthy carry gun is either my Glock 30 with a full size 13 round mag and;\or my Sig P320 full size .357 sig cartridge.
We all heard how in WWII marines shot the bad guys with .45acp and they went down like bowling pins. While ballistics may show 9mm just as effective as .45acp I have my doubts and would rather go with the larger round
Moreover, you look at a Glock 19 and my Glock 30 with a full size glock 21 magazing I got only 2 less rounds than a GLock 19
Well, now you're in trouble. The 9 crowd will be around directly to convince you laws of physics are fake news.
In the NMSP we stopped our transition from 357 revolvers to 9mm 5906s after three utterly inadequate results in three separate incidents in short order. The transition resumed when the 5906s were swapped out with 4506s. End of issue.
Ammo was 115 grain Silvertip +P and 147 grain Hydra-shok. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 9mm bullets are better now...so are 40 and 45 bullets.
Well there was the case where the LEO shot a BG 16 times with a .45 before stopping him, and then only because the 16th shot was a head shot. One can argue number of shots and calibers until the cows come home . . . or they don't.
Ah yes a good old caliber war thread Shot placement trumps caliber. There are many cases where a single well placed .25 acp FMJ round resulted in the victim being down and out. So carry what you want and can shoot well.
The first couple of weeks the Georgia State Patrol had 9mms back in about 2015, they had two OIS that delivered less than spectacular results. Both failed to incapacitate, and one the guy was shot in the face. He was treaded at the hospital and released that day.
Last edited by Loyaljeeper; 08-10-2021 at 08:15 AM.
We have no idea how well those 6 shots were placed.
With training emphasis being on volume of fire rather than marksmanship, this might be a significant factor.
When was the last time you heard of a police department sending a pistol team to compete at Camp Perry in the national Bullseye matches?
Not many departments have (or probably want) officers like Harry Reeves, for whom the NRA has named their revolver match. (See pic)
I was watching a police shooting where this female cop shot the bad guy armed with a knife 6 times and it was the 6th shot that finally brought him down.
This kind of worried me and now feel the only worthy carry gun is either my Glock 30 with a full size 13 round mag and;\or my Sig P320 full size .357 sig cartridge.
We all heard how in WWII marines shot the bad guys with .45acp and they went down like bowling pins. While ballistics may show 9mm just as effective as .45acp I have my doubts and would rather go with the larger round
Moreover, you look at a Glock 19 and my Glock 30 with a full size glock 21 magazing I got only 2 less rounds than a GLock 19
Basing personal Life decisions on such narrow examples as this is foolish.
It almost strikes me as a troll trying to start a caliber war.
The whole premise of this post is suspect. If it is real, it is certainly misguided. The information presented without any substantiation is absolutely minimal. The reference to 45 ACP putting down enemies in WWII is ridiculous.
Focusing on guns/calibers/bullets is a rookie mistake. So much available information prioritizes training and skill over hardware. Address that and the concerns about caliber go away.
Just reporting an old saying,” if going to a gun fight bring a pistol that starts with 4 and a rifle that starts in 3”. Again, just reporting an old saying.
Sadly most LEO’s departments do not have the $$$ or time to train enough. Most indoor ranges offer Free range time to LEO’s.
A VAST majority of police officers could care less about that iron or polymer on their hip, if they aren’t being paid to shoot they will not shoot. Been there done that, taught firearms for 20 years in LE. ‘Hey we will give you free ammo to shoot,’ had to stop that because none would show up. If your shoot him once and it don’t work, keep shooting and maybe shoot a different part of him,
There are many such cases where individual outliers have withstood an extraordinary number of rounds of any of the effective duty calibers and remained fighting for extended periods despite having suffered numerous good hits.
They're statistically irrelevant.
Choose a defensive handgun in a bona fide duty caliber and train with it.
There are many such cases where individual outliers have withstood an extraordinary number of rounds of any of the effective duty calibers and remained fighting for extended periods despite having suffered numerous good hits.
They're statistically irrelevant.
Depends on whose side they are on. One of "our" guys keeps fighting after they've been shot to pieces, it's in the medal citation.
One of their guys does it, he was "high on something" and/or our weapon and ammo are second rate.
I was employed by a large Florida Sheriff Department (1990s) and the issued service pistol was S&W M6906 with Gold Dot 115 grain JHP ammo. Free practice ammo as often and as much, and as often as you wanted.
The Department had almost weekly OIS. The 9mm failed big time. Department finally changed to S&W M4506 with Hydro Shock 230 grain JHP ammo. The .45 did great and was a vast improvment over the 9mm.
I survived three on duty shootings in my career w/my issued .38 and a lot of variables go into dropping the bad guy. IMHO caliber wars are a waste, more time & effort should go into training. Most agencies only qualify twice a year, not nearly enough.
OP, what're going to do when you watch a video of .45ACP not getting the job done (80 year old tales from WWII aside)? How about when you watch a video of multiple .357 Magnum rounds not doing it either. How about .556?
It's all out there.
How about a video of a single .22LR round dropping a man where he stands, dead. Shall we all switch to a one-shot rimfire?
Or when we add in all the variables that account for instant versus delayed stops, the latter being the most common irrespective or caliber?
But okay, another .45 vs 9 and "how much capacity is enough" food fight...
There was good reason the military dropped the 38 cal pistols during the Phillipine battles for the 45acp. In 'Nam, the 45 would drop any VC with a body hit and really slow him down with a leg hit! Stress during a shootout hinders well placed shots! If you have steady nerves and the time, a 22rf will stop a bad guy too.
There is no magic bullet. This is why capacity is an important message to me. Keep shooting until you stop the threat. The officer in the incident referenced above about the failure of his .45 not stopping the threat, has now gone to 9mm. He's chosen capacity over caliber. This is why I'm not a fan of 5 shot revolvers for a primary (back-up, yes). Having to re-load a 5 shot revolver in a gun fight, is low on my list of things I want to do (this would also apply to a 6 shot).
I've also heard stories of military operators who had no issues with 9mm ball, as shot placement won the day for them.
My everyday carry load out for CCW is usually at least 30 rounds of a major caliber (at least 9 rounds in the gun with extra mags), backed-up by 8 rounds of .380 or 9mm in a back-up gun.
This is my Journey. You might be on a different Journey.
There is a somewhat grisly video of an RPG gunner being engaged by an infantry squad. Despite seeing several 5.56 and 7.62 rounds pass through his torso, he does not quit fighting.
At one point you see a round exit his skull just above his ear. At that instant, all voluntary action IMMEDIATELY CEASES.
Those country boys, who grew up hunting, have deer seen fall DRT on one day and run a hundred yards the next with similar hits are not as surprised, but they are in the minority these days. Shooting blocks of Jello, might be entertaining ad copy, but that's about as far as it goes with me. Give me mass and penetration. I want them leaking on both sides through a big a hole as I can get. I know enough anatomy to know where I want to put my bullets. If you ever get to hunt animals that bite, your guide will not say go center mass.
So yes, placement matters! More than anything else.
I study bullet performance in animals with over 100 recovered projectiles in my collection. I also study police shooting. EVERY caliber has failed. I have a cop friend that shot himself through the knee cap with a 45 ACP. He had to sit in his car and pull up his pant leg to see what "stung" as he called it. Numerous reports of 45 ACP's failing to stop opponents in wars. One Marine raider shot a Jap at muzzle distance, in the face. The Jap just stood there stunned. The Marines Reising jammed and he had to wrestle the enemies bayonet away from him to finish off his opponent. I had a friend that hated the 45 ACP as a weapon of war. Mentioning to him that he did not know what he was talking about, got Sam to stand on a table and rip his shirt open to expose a huge scar across his chest. He commented that this is what happens when you shoot a Jap with a 45 and he has a bayonet. I have collected many such reports of failure to stop with a 45. And my bedside gun for 40 years is a 1911 45 ACP.
I still carry a 38 Spl revolver or even a 32 S&W L for CCW. I depend on the fact that I HAVE a gun handy and shot placement for any foreseeable “social encounters” day to day. As the old ranger said, “ Ma’am, if I was expecting trouble, I’da brought a shotgun.”
I’m not a uniformed officer, just an old retired guy who’s too tired to run and too old to take a lickin’ so I guess I’ll just have to aim for center of mass and depend on bullet placement.
I agree with you. When we changed from a .357 revolver, to a model 645 we all felt a sigh of relief. The word was we were changing to 9mm. I have several .380 pocket guns, but they are belly guns, and I cannot depend on them. In fact I stopped carrying them and carried a Gerber boot knife instead. I retired shortly after we were issued 4506-1. I have carried a CS 45 for over 20 years.
An Alternate look at hand gun stopping power by Gregg Elliritz answers the questions posed by this thread. Best research I have found on this topic. Free in the web.
Forgive me for not reading most of the above posts, but I didn’t have to read many to realize there are some of the same old themes here, mostly devoid of facts.
Let’s clarify a few things:
1) All handgun rounds are inadequate to get immediate incapacitation with anything other than a well placed shot to the central nervous system (brain or upper portion of the spinal column).
2) Even a shot to the heart or large vessels above the heart that immediately causes a catastrophic loss of blood pressure still leaves about 10-15seconds of oxygenated blood in the brain and muscles. That means a fatal shot to the heart will still leave the assailant with 10-15 seconds of useful consciousness to continue his assault.
3) Hunters who have shot a deer in the heart will be able to confirm that a heart shot doesn’t always drop an animal in its tracks. Deer hit in the upper chambers of the heart or large arteries above the heart can still run about 50 yards before they collapse and they *will* run if they are able to identify where the threat is coming from. Deer hit in the most muscular - and partially self sealing - lower chambers of the heart cam run 100 yards or more.
Keep in mind this is with hits from high velocity expanding rifle rounds, not handgun rounds. The smart money after hitting an animal that runs off in the brush is to just cool your jets for 15 minutes so that it won’t run far, beds down, gets stiff and won’t be able to get back up.
On the other hand the smart money with damegerous game chargine you is to shoot and keep shooting until it stops the charge, dies, or kills you. This is a lot closer to the suitable response with a human assailant - shoot until the assailant goes down or you reach slide lock.
4) With number 3 in mind remember that missing or getting ineffective hits *faster* isn’t *better*. Good hits are what matter and accuracy and bullet placement matter far more than the cartridge or bullet used in a self defense shoot.
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Statistically speaking when looking at what works well in real world shoots over time, the 125 gr .357 Magnum is pretty much just as effective as anything larger - the .45 ACP, .41 Magnum or the .44 Magnum. However you see a slight decline in performance with the .40 S&W and 9mm Luger. To be fair that’s also probably offset or even more than offset by an ability to get more good hits in the same period of time.
I like the .45 ACP in a 1911, but I also carry a 1911 in 9mm Luger at times and don’t feel any less under gunned. I came to that conclusion that that in a practical pistol match I can score 3 A zone hits with a 9mm in the same time it takes to score just 2 with a .45 ACP. That’s 3 chances to score a cardio vascular or CNS hit and three wound tracks helping to reduce blood pressure rather than just 2.
That’s more compelling than the argument that 9mm hollow points have improved significantly since the 1990s. Thyme have, but so have hollow points in .45 ACP, etc.
We can argue about whether the 9mm is good enough. My position will be that a modern hollow point like the 135 gr Gold Dot in a +P loading it probably is as good as or even better than an old poorly expanding .45 ACP Hi Shok, but a modern .45 ACP hollow point like the 230 gr HST is an awesome performer.
It really comes down to wether an individual can shoot something larger than 9mm Luger with suitable accuracy. Some can. Others can’t.
On this board, being revolver centric, you are going to get the cries of magnum this and magnum that, bigger is always better, and less than X caliber is for effeminate. Also, posters here tend to be of an age where old wives/cops tales and stories in gun magazines by famous authors were taken as gospel, statistics that have been proven time and time again to be fictitious are still given credence, and cognitive biases still cloud judgement. That is not meant as a slight! It's what was available at the time.
The world is more cynical nowadays. More people are skeptical of stories told 2nd-10th hand, they're more willing to do look into datasets and question them, they're willing to have their sacred cows slaughtered.
The facts are when it comes to pistol rounds, they are just pistol rounds. Nothing special. Poke lots of holes, the deeper the better, as fast as you can until the badguy(s) stop being bad. Caliber is NOT a substitute for being the first'est with the most'est, and accurate'est. The chances of .45acp killing a guy that 9mm didnt with identical placement is extremely remote. Practice bringing the bad people the good news and stop worrying about .355 versus .451 or 9mm versus 11.43mm.
I haven't seen the video, but I've got experience with reported "lack of incapitation" shootings. The autopsies showed the cause to be a lack of hits in vital areas. As to the number of shots, sometimes it's because the officer can fire that many that quickly. Of course, it does depend upon exactly where those rounds go.
These tired and repetitive threads on the same subject are pointless.
There are no complete and accurate figures available, but the 158 grain roundnose standard pressure .38 Special load may have had more to do with the demise of criminals than all other cartridges and everything else combined from the early 1900s until the 1970s, maybe even early 1980s.
There wasn't much selection in .38 Special cartridges for a good while and even when "superior" loadings were marketed, the 158 roundnose loading was always available everywhere that sold ammo and it was likely the cheapest, probably why it was a somewhat universal loading for law enforcement agencies for a long time.
I'm not advocating anything other than what a shooter can shoot well. And big magazine capacities? Fine, just keep in mind you're not going to war like the gunfighting theorists assume.
Always missing from these conversations is a female LEO's perspective, so here's one that I learned yesterday. My daughter is a state trooper. She has been out of work for a while now due to a wrist and hand injury sustained taking a dirt bag into custody. After surgical repairs, she is now in intensive strength training to regain use, flexibility and strength in the wrist. During this time, her agency switched from 40 S&W to 9 mm. The doctor managing her recovery told her that she can start shooting, but limited to 3 rounds. She came over with her new service weapon yesterday, and proceeded to roll the small ball target at 25 yards all 3 shots. She was elated at how much better she was able to manage the 9 mm. She did not enjoy shooting before, but she said she will definitively spend more time practicing with the 9 mm. For her, the 9 mm is an improvement in comfort and accuracy, and that makes me feel better. And as females continue to grow in agencies ranks, I would imagine that decision makers will pay less attention to old WWII films of 45's.
I was watching a police shooting where this female cop shot the bad guy armed with a knife 6 times and it was the 6th shot that finally brought him down.
This kind of worried me and now feel the only worthy carry gun is either my Glock 30 with a full size 13 round mag and;\or my Sig P320 full size .357 sig cartridge.
We all heard how in WWII marines shot the bad guys with .45acp and they went down like bowling pins. While ballistics may show 9mm just as effective as .45acp I have my doubts and would rather go with the larger round
Moreover, you look at a Glock 19 and my Glock 30 with a full size glock 21 magazing I got only 2 less rounds than a GLock 19
Would not read too much into that video. We do not know if the shots were placed center-of-mass or around the edges.
Even a load of 12 gauge buckshot at a few feet fails to stop someone occasionally.
A VAST majority of police officers could care less about that iron or polymer on their hip, if they aren’t being paid to shoot they will not shoot. Been there done that, taught firearms for 20 years in LE. ‘Hey we will give you free ammo to shoot,’ had to stop that because none would show up. If your shoot him once and it don’t work, keep shooting and maybe shoot a different part of him,
Depends on the agency. In my very limited sample, my observation is that large agencies match your description, while small agencies tend to have officers more interested in firearms and training. I expect deputies in my semi-rural county to be quite proficient with their firearms.
I own and use both chamberings. Each has its advantages and best purposes too.
I am reminded of Finn Aagaard's remark (and I paraphrase), "Killing power is a matter of biology, not of math or science. It is influenced most by shot placement working in concert with adequate penetration.”
With this being understood I, myself, carry a 45 ACP pistol most of the time; and, with the exception of a number of precise one shot kills I have made on big game, I only rarely fire just one round. Instead, I double and triple-tap almost everything, and this is especially true whenever I am using any pistol.
Neither will I ever be a big fan of JHP ammunition. Do I use it? Sure I do; however, I have spent far too many years hunting and taking down large animals to put my trust in the efficacy of JHP bullets. Even with good shot placement, sometimes JHP bullets will work as well as FMJ bullets, and sometimes it won't.
I can tell you as a paramedic with thirty years plus in the business that I have seen many D.R.T. that were put there with cheap ammo and small calibers. On the flip side I have been to calls where the individual took a large caliber round(s) to the chest and abdomen sitting up talking to the crew on the way to the hospital. I have seen an individual take a .357 magnum round self inflicted to the left side of his chest through and through walk to the cot yelling h wish he had not done that because it hurt like hell. The way I see it is every individual is different in not only body type but pain tolerance and some just shear will. Some are so jacked up on drugs or medications that unless you hit them in a major blood vessel, organ or the central nervous system they will not go down without one hell of a fight. Me I carry what I shoot well and hope to god I never have to use it. I seek out the ammunition that functions well in those weapons and that's what I carry. I get the whole argument we all have favorites we all heard the stories and watched the videos me I would rather the officers have something that functions well after evaluations, research and range time.
The fact of the matter is that literally every round in existence has failed to stop someone, somewhere, at some point in time, and while folks continue to use each and every instance of such an occurrence as a means to backup their cartridge of choice, the simple truth is that the world is an imperfect place, things seldom turn out the way that we expect them to, even with the most careful of planning, and frankly until someone literally invents a handheld weapon which is capable of completely disintegrating the target at the cellular/attomic level, there will never be a guaranteed one-shot-stop.
Honestly, this is coming from someone who isn't a fan of 9mm Luger too, in fact I feel that it's overrated, but realistically speaking, any shot that falls to result in incapacitation with a 9mm would be equally as ineffective with a .45 because ultimately shot placement is the single most decisive factor in a gunfight.
Seriously, if a 9mm misses a vital organ, then realistically speaking, a .45 might graze it at best, which isn't realistically going to make a difference in overall effectiveness.
Do I share the sentiment that all cartridges are somehow magically equal in terms of performance because there's no significant visible difference in a block of gel with no bones? Certainly not. Do I agree with the sentiment that 9mm is so close in performance to other duty cartridges that it makes no significant difference? I'm skeptical of that as well.
However, I have come to believe that ultimately Law Enforcement's decision to switch to 9mm Luger was a sound decision on the grounds that if you're going to outfit an equal opportunity workforce of officers with a single cartridge, then it's a good idea to pick one that virtually anyone can shoot effectively, costs less money, and will still be effective with proper shot placement.
9x19 Luger is an effective duty cartridge. Period. If you favor another cartridge and feel that it's more effective, then more power to you, carry is ultimately a personal choice, and there is no ideal one-size-fits-all cartridge for self-defense, and anyone who asserts otherwise in an arrogant fool. However, don't go cherry-picking cases in which a cartridge fails to stop someone as an example to back up your choice, especially not if an innocent was harmed/killed in the process, essentially using their hospital bed or coffin as a soapbox to promote your cartridge of choice. Have the guts to carry what you want regardless of what others think, because their feelings are irrelevant to your own personal choices and you shouldn't need their approval.
Personally, I've found that I love .40 S&W, a cartridge that folks by and large think isn't worth a darn, but I don't care, I just like it, and I carry it because I like it, the end. But guess what, 9mm works too, it can even work better for some. Sure, I wish that folks wouldn't be so obnoxiously insistent that it's a terrible cartridge which never had a valid reason to exist, and whatever they carry is always better for everyone on Earth including myself, but that's life, some people are just insecure jerks who need to have all of their life decisions validated by appealing to authority and putting down anyone who doesn't follow the same line of reasoning. Don't be like them. If you like .357 SIG (or whatever) then like it because you like it, don't go putting everyone else down or seeking validation. Okay? Good talk, carry on.
__________________
Shooting Comfort is bilateral.
Last edited by Echo40; 08-09-2021 at 06:38 PM.
Reason: Fixed numerous typos.
Well I carry a 38. I might as well be a dead man walking. I wonder if anyone told the stakeout squad or all of the pre turn of the 18th century Patterson and Colt Navy .36 caliber users this?
"There's a very significant difference between a mortally wounded target and an incapacitated target. Anytime the 1986 Miami shootout is referenced [it was in the original post], this distinction needs to be highlighted. Both of the perps were mortally wounded pretty early in the fight. They were gonna die. But they weren't incapacitated and killed or maimed most of the agents present before CNS (incapacitating) hits were achieved.
With hunting, we care only for mortal wounds, preferably quickly through shock and blood loss. Unless you're a tool (or hunting dangerous game) you're not blasting the animal over and over again. Line up a good shot, take it, and assess. Stuff you're not doing in a firefight. IMO the traditional 'double tap and assess' is a double action revolver drill. With a 9mm holding 19+1, I'm doing a Mozambique at the least and if they're still standing after the third shot, I'm doing it again.
The whole idea behind medium-power weapons with a high rate of fire and large magazine capacities is they give the most chances for that CNS hit in the shortest period of time. The FBI test is designed around penetrating and hitting the spinal column. We're all trained to shoot center mass not only because it gives the best chance to hit under stress, it also is the best target.
There's a lot of science that shows you don't get an incapacitating shock effect from non-CNS hits until you get up into very powerful handguns (not .357/10mm...keep going), medium-bore rifles, and buckshot/slug from a 20g or greater. And even then it's not consistent. Severing the spine or sending a guy's brains out the back of his head are really, really consistent."
Anytime I read "we used 9mm 115gr" especially the Silvertip, I stop reading because 100% I know it's about ammo failure to stop. To get it, you gotta bring it and 115gr 9mm just doesn't. 115gr 6.5mm rifle rounds, sure, but they're moving twice as fast.
The fact of the matter is that literally every round in existence has failed to stop someone, somewhere, at some point in time, and while folks continue to use each an every instance of such an occurrence as a means to backup their cartridge of choice, the simple truth is that the world is an imperfect place, things seldom turn out the way that we expect them to, even with the most careful of planning, and frankly until someone literally invents a handheld weapon which is capable of completely disintegrating the target at the cellular/attomic level, there will never be a guaranteed one-shot-stop.
Honestly, this is coming from someone who isn't a fan of 9mm Luger too, in fact I feel that it's overrated, but realistically speaking, any shot that falls to result in incapacitation with a 9mm would be equally as ineffective with a .45 because ultimately shot placement is the single most decisive factor in a gunfight.
Seriously, if a 9mm misses a vital organ, then realistically speaking, a .45 might graze it at best, which isn't realistically going to make a difference in overall effectiveness.
Do I share the sentiment that all cartridges are somehow magically equal in terms of performance because there's no significant visible difference in a block of gel with no bones? cCertainly not. Do I agree with the sentiment that 9mm is so close in performance to other duty cartridges that it makes no significant difference? I'm skeptical of that as well.
However, I have come to believe that ultimately Law Enforcement's decision to switch to 9mm Luger was a sound decision on the grounds that if you're going to outfit an equal opportunity workforce of officers with a single cartridge, then it's a good idea to pick one that virtually anyone can shoot effectively, costs less money, and will still be effective with proper shot placement.
9x19 Luger is an effective duty cartridge. Period. If you favor another cartridge and feel that it's more effective, then more power to you, carry is ultimately a personal choice, and there is no ideal one-size-fits-all cartridge for self-defense, and anyone who asserts otherwise in an arrogant fool. However, don't go cherry-picking cases in which a cartridge fails to stop someone as an example to back up your choice, especially not if an innocent was harmed/killed in the process, essentially using their hospital bed of coffin as a soapbox as a means to promote your cartridge of choice. Have the guts to carry what you want regardless of what others thing, because their feelings are irrelevant to your own personal choices and you shouldn't need their approval.
Personally, I've found that I love .40 S&W, a cartridge that folks by and large think isn't worth a darn, but I don't care, I just like it, and I carry it because I like it, the end. But guess what, 9mm works too, it can even work better for some. Sure, I wish that folks wouldn't be so obnoxiously insistent that it's a terrible cartridge which ever had a reason to exist, and whatever they carry is always better for everyone on Earth including myself, but that's life, some people are just insecure jerks who need to have all of their life decisions validated by appealing to authority and putting down anyone who doesn't follow the same line of reasoning. Don't be like them. If you like .357 SIG (or whatever) then like it because you like it, don't go putting everyone else down or seeking validation. Okay? Good talk, carry on.
Best reasoned assessment I’ve read relating to “caliber war” threads. I agree 100%…and I strongly dislike .40 S&W.
An Alternate look at hand gun stopping power by Gregg Elliritz answers the questions posed by this thread. Best research I have found on this topic. Free in the web.
Would not read too much into that video. We do not know if the shots were placed center-of-mass or around the edges.
Even a load of 12 gauge buckshot at a few feet fails to stop someone occasionally.
You brought up the subject of 12 gauge so will give my one and only 12 gauge vs deer story to keep things lively. Brother and I returned from duck hunting to find a small fawn mule deer in the ditch with broken back legs. Weighted maybe 75 pounds. The local game warden saw it also but was off duty. He stopped and said to hurry and finish it off. With a 12 gauge slug I walked to within a foot of the cripple, put the muzzle to the forehead and pulled the trigger. No reaction except blinking it eyes. Nothing but a 3/4" smoking hole in its head just below the brain. Had to shoot again. So much for the awesome knock down power of a 12 gauge.
I loved the story about Bella Twin. That was awesome. Some individuals today that will not be mentioned, for the possibility of being deleted from this thread, would have just tried to hit the bear with the rifle or just run away screaming. She had real guts. I have never thought about where I should try and shoot a bear with any kind of round other than the heart/lung area.
I believe that if it had been me, I would have needed a new pair of drawers.
Police shooting 9mm failed to stop bad guy
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