options for short range 223 remington defense loads

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agent00

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I am about to purchase a used remington 7615 police in 223 remington mainly for target/fun shooting. I also have self defense in mind although that is not going to be the main "task" for that gun.

Why remington 7615 and not an semi auto rilfe you might ask? Well that's a good question an the answer is simple. It would be possible to get an ar type rilfe here in Austria but would it would require lots of paper work. There are also some legal concerns. I do not live alone and unlike myself my girlfriend does not have weapons permit so only cetain weapons can be stored open in the house. Restricted weapons need to be stored in gun rack that must be locked. The Remington 7615 is not among these restricted weapons and can be stored rather open which is important important in an case of emergency.

I am aware that 223 remington is very potent caliber for short range self defense so any load should be effective enough

but are there some loads that are more preferable over others. I was thinking about using a plain 55 grain or 62 jhp or jsp bullet.

I do not need one of these fancy barrier blind tactical rounds.

I am particularly worried about over penetration because the walls in appartment or made solid concrete but I still would never underestimate the power of the 223 remington. So better being safe than sorry.

Which loads would you recommend for short range indoor self defenes scenario.


Thanks for your help in advance.
 
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I know it seems completely crazy, but it has been well-proven that light hollow-point or frangible-bullet loads in .223/5.56 are just about the best round available if you want to avoid wall penetration. Even birdshot loads from a shotgun will penetrate walls farther than the .223. Numerous reports of experiments both amateur and professional can be found by Googling the subject.
 
Black Hills 55gr soft point.

This has been our agency issue ammo for .223/5.56 for a very long time. I can tell you it works very well on stopping humans at close range. We're actually trying to replace it because it doesn't work very well with intermediate barriers (glass, etc), but it sounds like that's exactly what you're looking for.
 
Rodan said:
Black Hills 55gr soft point.

This has been our agency issue ammo for .223/5.56 for a very long time. I can tell you it works very well on stopping humans at close range. We're actually trying to replace it because it doesn't work very well with intermediate barriers (glass, etc), but it sounds like that's exactly what you're looking for.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for your recommendation. Yes that sounds exacatly what I am looking for. Defeating intermediate barriers is nothing I need to worry about as a civilian. So the shortcomings of that round from tactical point view is irrevelant for me and my needs.
 
It depends on what ammunition is available in your country, which may different from the USA. That said, Remington makes/made a 50 gr softpoint load that is probably a good fit for your needs.

Did you decide against a shotgun?
 
Just think as that rifle as a 22 Magnum going through the roof......

40 gr at 3900fps
55 gr at 3800fps

You are not going to get over penetration !!
 
Nevada Ed said:
Just think as that rifle as a 22 Magnum going through the roof......

40 gr at 3900fps
55 gr at 3800fps

You are not going to get over penetration !!
Click to expand...

40 Gr. 22 WMR @ 3900 FPS?? Whew....That's one hot load! Most 40 Gr. 22 WMR factory loads clock in at just under 1900 FPS.
 
murphydog said:
It depends on what ammunition is available in your country, which may different from the USA. That said, Remington makes/made a 50 gr softpoint load that is probably a good fit for your needs.

Did you decide against a shotgun?
Click to expand...


My main defense gun is the 12 gauge double barreled coach gun. The 7615 is going to be purchased mainly for target/fun shooting but It should be also able to serve as home defense rifle that's why i wanted to ask proper ammo.

If there are no ammo shortages I can get stuff from Remington, federal, winchester, hornady and magtech

And lot's of European ammo too of course, like Fiocchi, RWS, PPU,S&B. and Norma.

There are plenty of options for plain 55 or 62 grain jhp or jsp rounds.

The availability for lighter rounds is not that good. I have only seen the 40 grain vmax from Hornady.
 
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Hornady also makes a 55gr V-Max. That's what I use in my coyote rifle. Any of those rapid expansion/disintegrating bullets would be a better choice than JSP's if you are worried about over penetration.
 
Fiocchi makes a very good ammo and I have used a lot of it. They make a good 55gr SP ammo which will be good for the range and home defense too. Fiocchi ammo might cost you less in Austria than some of the American made ammo and you won't be sacrificing quality.

Since it has a 1:9 twist rate you really can't go too heavy with the bullet, maybe 65gr max. Like you said a 55gr or 62gr bullet will work well. I don't think Fiocchi had a 62gr JSP or JHP bullet unfortunately or I would suggest that over a 55gr bullet. They do have a 69gr and 77gr bullet but they are too heavy for that barrel.
 
@ArchAngelCD You are right. The availability of Fiocchi rounds is quite good. The price as well.

And thanks for confirming that my internet research was correct that 55 or 62-grain rounds are ideal for rifle with a 1:9 barrel twist.

@Paul in Neveda Did not know that Hornady also has some 55 grain vmax rounds. I have just seen the 40 grain ones at my local gun store but that does not mean that I can't get the 55 grain ones. I did not ask to be honest.

If i go for the v-max I would prefer the heavier load. But due easier avability the 55 grain softpoints from Fioochi would be the better choice.
 
1:9 twist will easily shoot all the way up to 70gr bullets just fine. It isn't bullet weight that decides twist rate it's bullet length. Once you start getting into VLD bullets, copper solids, etc, that's when your 1:9 will fail to stabilize bullets over 62gr. Bullets over 62gr are mostly match style FMJ's or JHP's anyway. They are built for stability, not necessarily rapid expansion. The 55gr V-Max has a flat base so it isn't too long for it's weight, even though it has a hollow point and polymer tip.
 
FWIW, Fiocchi produces 50gr VMax ammo. I use it for predator hunting. It’s very accurate ammo in several ARs and in my CZ bolt rifle.

I use 62gr Federal Fusion for hogs and would for home defense, but given what I’ve seen the 50gr VMax do to predators I think it would be just fine for in home self defense.
 
@John Patrick Thx for the info. The Fioochi 50 grain vmax rounds are available here in Austria indeed. I did some research about the round including ballistic gel results and it looks a good round. Exactly what I am looking for.

The 62 grain federal fusion also seems like a good round but too expensive for my needs. Also such high peformance rounds are not needed for an short range sd scenario. Such powerful round would work great against barriers I believe but I cannot think of any legal sd scenario where a civilian like myself has to shoot through barriers.

That are important things to consider for law enforcement professionals but not for civilians.

From federal the 55 grain power shock round which I have seen at my local gun store as well might be interesting.

If I am not mistaking the power shok line from federal are just plain soft point rounds?


Another option would be 52 grain soft points from Norma using softpoint rounds from Nosler?

Do you guys have any experience with the nosler soft points? Have nosler bullets a good reputation?
 
Nosler makes excellent bullets.

On potential barrier penetration, I would rate bullets according to their construction and intended uses:
Varmint - minimal penetration and explosive expansion
General purpose cup and core (like the Power Shok, for example) - modest penetration and very good expansion, but possible core separation since there is nothing holding cup snd core together.
Mono metal, bonded core or H frame bullets - deep penetration and good expansion with means to prevent core separation.

As an apartment resident, your analysis is correct, imo, but some of us live in large homes where some barrier penetration would be good to have for home defense.
 
The rifle you are talking about is a very sound weapon. You will like it. Enjoy!
 
Even 55gr FMJ has Less wall penetration than typical handgun rounds .

Most SP/ HP bullets of 55gr & down are intended for Varmint Hunting . ( Shooting things like groundhogs , and prairie dogs at long range ) , and are intended to expand very quickly in very small animals , and have very shallow penetration .

There is a near total overlap between " Barrier Blind Tactical Ammunition " and Deer Hunting Ammunition ( American Whitetail Deer , think typically 40 to 75 kg body weight . These will be typically either monolithic or bonded construction . Yes they're expensive , but how many rounds does average person actually fire into big game animals or actual gunfights ?

But if not the $$ for Bonded or Monolithic , plain old 55gr FMJ , preferably with canalure is pretty decent . They will tumble on impact , and ideally tumble plus fragment .
 
GB said:
The rifle you are talking about is a very sound weapon. You will like it. Enjoy!
Click to expand...


Thanks. I am really looking forward to owning it soon and trying it out at the range.

@John Patrick, You got a point of course. Residents of larger homes have different requirements for home defense.

@Biggfoot44 Thanks a lot for the detailed description of the different bullet types.

Using a 55-grain fmj bullet as a budget home defense round would be possible. FMJ rounds would be my preferred plinking ammo for the range anyway because they are quiet and widely available.

Considering them for home defense too did not cross my mind but it would make sense to a certain extent.

Expanding rounds would still make more sense but if civilian 55 grain 223 remington FMJ are similar to the old 5,56mm nato m193 which tumbled and even fragmented at the short range I would not hesitate to consider them for home defense usage.

Do you guys know if the 55-grain fmj loads from Winchester act similar to the military m193 rounds?

The winchester rounds are the most common fmj rounds at my local gun store and I would buy plenty of them for plinking as soon my 7615 arrives.
 
I'm late to the party here but ...

Think twice and 3 times about firing an AR in a small room. It is head slapping, disorienting, ear splitting, painful loud. I've done it twice now, neither time on purpose. When that bump in the night comes, I will not be reaching for an AR.

Did I mention the part where it's disorienting?
 
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