I won't be carrying a handgun...

Let's debate 5.56 vs 7.62

Or .50 Beowulf...

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My carry, 360 PD, 135gr GDSBs.

Some misconceptions here concerning the use of hollow point ammo use by the US Military.
The Geneva Convention does not address hollow points.
The US is not a signatory to the Hague Convention.
Look up M1153 cartridges.

As LE we were not too concerned with over-penetration since statistically somewhere in the neighborhood of 75% of rounds fired by LE miss their intended targets anyway. We were very concerned about where those rounds, wether they hit their intended target or not, ended up.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

absolutely!

I think I'll stick my with flat nose FMJ then because I'm comfortable with it. I can't find any hollow points consistently near me and I can't use an ammo I can't consistently get to practice with. S&B it is, guess the rule about knowing what is beyond my target will have to be followed rigidly, though I'm assuming that applies to hollow points too

Some years ago, when the NYPD used to issue an annual report, they determined 83% of their shots missed entirely.

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I've still got it made.

I would carry wadcutters over RN or small meplat FMJs. With wadcutters you get a 38 caliber whole, with RN or small meplat FMJs you don’t.

But with so many good HP options it’s easy to find a choice that shoots well, and with a similar POI as practice ammo.

But I’d choose my carry ammo and then find practice ammo that shoots similarly, not the other way around.

And on that topic, at self or home defense ranges, I’ve never shot any ammo that had such a different POI from any of my handguns that caused a concern.

Well, I had permits to carry for over 40 years. My rule of thumb, was that if a semi auto was designed for hardball ammo, use that. Feeding reliability is first and foremost. In a revolver, hard cast SWC. Personally, I have no preference for HP, or other styles, and I would not pay a nickel for this boutique ammo that costs 2.00/round, it is a gimmick IMO. It is the same thing as fishing lures that are designed to catch fishermen long before the catch fish

In my 1911's I carry 185 grain HP. In the .32 I shoot whatever I can find until I get the proper molds . Mostly I carry a J frame .38 S&W with 110 g GDHP and a stiff dose of Herco.

Practice with what you carry until you can keep your shots in the face and throat area and penetration becomes a lesser issue . If you can't do that maybe a Judge and some buck shot loads are something you should consider.

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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

In post #36 the OP enlightened that the discussion is .357 Mag ammo fired from M686 . Specifically the moderate S&B 158 fmj vs various full power defense/ duty rounds .

I am somewhat outspoken in more accurate better than not accurate , aim small , miss small , etc , but there's also lots of context involved .

If the OP is consistently hitting 3 inch targets @ 30 yds , my hats off to OP for his marksmanship , and that load is certainly accurate in his gun .

Just a wild guess , but is that at a slow to moderate pace ? Are you shooting strictly reactive targets , or 3 inch aiming points on a larger piece of paper ? Trying to get a feel for the accuracy * in your hands * for the other full power loads .

Making hypothetical assumption that the 3 inch targets @ 30yds is at a relaxed cadence .

For more relevance to defensive situiations , also look to control at rapid firing @ ( arbitrary , pick own similar range) of 15-ish yards . If you can consistently hit 8 inch plate , rapid fire @ 15 yds , you can have a high degree of confidence in your ammo and shooting .


All that said , if you get significantly less rapid control with full power .357 , there's no shame in slightly toning down the velocity . Medium velocity
357 is still plenty potent in any absolute sense .

Ammo availability is still spotty , but until the current panic , W-W White Box 110gr JHP .357 was readily available , and inexpensive . Certainly old school , it is representative of that class of ammo , and performed reasonably well back in the day ( notwithstanding the underpenetrion debate ) .

First part of OP's inquiry , out of sequence :

In .357 Mag , any reasonably HP is Significantly more effective than FMJ . I won't get lost in the weeds quantifying in this thread , but by any measure or yardstick , the difference is significant .

* For Myself * , I would use the .38 +P HP of my choosing before .357 FMJ .

*************************

I don't buy into the idea of " eh , overpenetration doesn't matter , because you're going to miss anyway " . Hitting is your goal and intention , and it is important to have at least one safe backstop ( the felon) to open fire at all in crowded environments .

Sad, but, how so true, since..........
a lot of shots are coming from some type of "Cover" in most cases where there are a lot of rounds are being excanged.

Very seldom is the single shot, put down available in most of todays calls.
The BG's are learning every day, how to be able to survive and maybe
get to have their day in court and get back out on the streets, again.

We all would like to make a deposit to the BG but at what cost?
The safety of my family comes first and pulling a trigger might only be my last option.....
while handing over my wallet and hoping that the person runs away, might be a smart move?

I am just lucky that 99% of the places that we go are "Low Risk areas"
and the house has lots of bells and lights and two dogs.

You should carry a HP, and probably a lighter weight bullet. It would suck to Drop some tweaker or other miscreant only to have legit shoot turn into crime because you killed a bystander a half a block away.

If you have to shoot, it will be in an instant with little time to be scanning for a safe backstop.

If those old shoot statistics were to be believed a 125 grain HP Has nearly rifle level stopping ability.

You are correct.

The irony being that NYPD was the first major department to implement HP ammunition, with the stated purpose of reducing over penetration. Not for improving the effectiveness of police shooting, i.e., stopping perps faster, rather to protect people behind the perp. As I recall, one year they discharged 4,000 rounds, and ONE person was killed by over penetration. Maybe. With multiple shots fired, it wasn't absolutely certain that the bullet had passed thru the perp first.

I find it amusing. A department with a spray-and-pray doctrine worried about over penetration.

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I've still got it made.

Remington 38spl 125gn +P HP. According to a Lucky Gunner test this is a fairly reliable round that is not expensive, controllable in a snub and cheap enough for practice. I have these in my HD 38. I practice with equivalent 125- 130gn hand loads. If going FMJ it would be wadcutter ammo

I am no ballistics expert but here's my opinion.. Carry what you shoot well, functions well in your weapon reliably and if you are on a budget what you can afford to train with to check off the above. I've seen some wild accounts of one shot kills with this and no stopage of a threat with that after 15 rounds so really what works every time? Nothing... unless you get great hits in vital areas so if you are carrying +P of whatever and you can't "hit" those vital areas because of recoil or your weapon doesn't "like it" well how good is that high dollar ammo? Also I think of my work as a paramedic and I promise you I have seen more DRT with cheap dirty ammo than I have with the high dollar JHP ammo...above all train and know your weapon..and God Bless everyone.

The only gun I use FMJ in is my Beretta 81BB in .32 ACP . It works 100% of the time with FMJ and at the speed it normally runs at I haven't found a JHP bullet that opens anything like reliably so why spend the extra. I do plan to get a couple of molds and work up some lead bullet loads for it that should be as reliable and give some expansion.

In larger calibers I carry HP, JSP or Keith SWC in fairly soft lead. If you are shooting a snub .38 Special I would use some form of LSWC or some full wad cutters if I had to use factory ammo. I use 110 and 135 grain GDHP in my snubs but I load all of my ammo and have a good supply of those bullets.

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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

The problem with a 38 snub nose is ....... recoil vs penetration.
Most Handicaped people can't handle +P or "FBI" loads in a J frame.
A target 148 HBWC is usually a maximum load for them in a "Airweight".

You just have to know your "Limits".

This aged well after the mall shooting. Anyone who only practices at average defense ranges is a fool. You should practice at as many different ranges as you can within reason.

I thought the issue of FMJ S&B .357 had been dealt with in another thread. However, you don't really have to practice with your exact carry load. Only governments can afford that sort of stuff and liability is a major reason for it.

What you can do is find a practice load with a cheaper bullet that is pretty close to the same ballistics. Both Federal and Winchester have training and defensive/duty loads that are the same, except that one has a JHP and the other doesn't. I expect more folks are going to jump on the same money train. Personally, I've never noticed any practical difference in POI or accuracy when changing from ball ammo to JHP. However, since you're talking about .357, is it possible the JHP load is hotter/lighter? I'd personally be really reluctant to use 158 gr .357 in any bullet configuration for defensive use-unless you're talking bears.

Do not use FMJ, except maybe in a .45 ACP.

Ammo accuracy is not really important for self-defense shooting where distances involved are typically measured in feet, if not inches. Functional reliability IS.
Heck, you don’t really even need rifling at those ranges!

Most people ( good and bad ) shot with handguns are shot by people who couldn’t reliably hit a garbage can lid at 20 yards under stress. Or a football at 7 yards.

Virtually none of our enemies in hot, sandy places are signatories either.

Your 3” groups at 35 yards are going to go right out the window if you ever have an armed confrontation requiring you to shoot.

A load and skill level that will barely stay in 12” at 15 or 20 yards is more than required.
(#1 ) VERY GOOD practice is good.
(#2 ) Very accurate ammo is good.

(#1 ) is much more important than (#2 )

As an ordinary citizen, if you are shooting at someone at 20 yards or more, you are probably screwing up, in our legal climate.

If I’m carrying a .380 it’ll be loaded with FMJ of some kind. All I require of a .380 is reliability and a .355 hole going in and a .355 hole coming out.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

In today's era, one carrys what is available.

That is no longer practical advice.

The whole thing about not carrying your own handloads, unless you are loading up ammo with something weird, is BS. A lot of attorneys don’t know what they are talking about. Especially when it comes to guns. If someone is unfortunate enough to live in one of the People’s Republic states, it might be a little bit of an issue, but should not be an insurmountable problem.
Bullets with blunt profiles, whether hollowpoint or flatnose, generally perform better in tissue.
I have been putting holes in living creatures (animals) and examining wound channels for a long time and feel well protected carrying small revolvers and pocket automatics chambered in .22LR, .380, and hollow-based full wadcutters in .38 Special.

I am not handicapped and won’t shoot any +P .38 or .357 load in an Airweight revolver either. Been there. Done that. Never again.
148 gr. Hollow Based Wadcutters at about 700 fps. for me. 😁

Fool? Rilly?

I am not a police officer. I have no duty to be proficient. I can shoot well enough to get out of a close encounter. The mere appearance of a gun stops over 99% of conflicts.

Training for the 0.001% chance makes no sense to me. I've got other things to do.

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I've still got it made.

Whatever I have.

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Sure you did

Lawyers may not know much about guns but they do know a lot about the court system. Its worth listening to what they have to say.

We all like to think that if we have to use a gun it will be so clearly be a case of self defense that it will never go to court. But the criminals get to decide the specific conditions, not us. Its not always clear cut.

Suppose a group of unarmed but large, strong and aggressive young teenagers tries to intimidate you into giving them your wallet and won't take no for an answer. Don't shoot and you could end up getting robbed, beaten to within an inch of your life or killed. Shoot and the media will give plenty of air time to the grieving mothers talking about how the crazy gun nut needlessly gunned down their little angels that never hurt a fly.

If it does go to court a jury of your peers will not mean 12 people that go shooting weekly and spend their spare time reading gun forums. It means 12 random people that likely know even less about guns than the attorneys you mentioned. A prosecutor could succesfully try to convince them that someone who "makes homemade bullets" is someone that was looking for a fight.

I went through this also since my standard Practice round is S&B 124 FMJ. I buy from J&G in AZ and sometimes they offer cases of S&B 124 Hollow Points for a very fair price. I find both rounds hit POI the same and I can keep all my guns and mags loaded now without too much cost.

Is a wad cutter considered a hollow point or a solid?
Asking for a friend.

Actually I think of it as a pre-expanded hollow point.
That's what I use.
But semi's don't like 'em....unless you have a 52.

OK bye.

HBWC bullets are not hollow points.

My defense attorney should be able to make the case that I used HBWC reloads having less penetration in the interest of safety for innocent bystanders. I might have used factory loads but they were not available due to the ammunition crisis.

One of the benefits of a 1911 .45acp.I feel well armed with either.

When forced, due to clothing limitations, to carry a .32 ACP, I stick to ball ammo. the hottest European load available. This is due to the fact that even if you get expansion, it is going to greatly decrease penetration. If you don't get to the vitals, well.....

If I was to carry a .45 ACP, I would not feel disadvantaged carrying 230 gr. ball ammo.

However, 90%+ of the time, I am carrying a 9mm, and it is stoked with Federal HST.

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Only a cold warrior

If you shoot ( acceptably to you) with only one brand of comparitively mild .357 , there is no shame or dishonor in using a good .38+P for social purposes .

Great advice, but almost nobody is going to do it.
The people who are most likely to need to display or use a gun in self-defense are the least likely to have the time, interest, and money to shoot that much.

The pocket gun I carry every day has only been fired once in the last 8 or 10 months. The last time I fired it 4 months ago I killed a rat the cat chased out of the garage. Range was about 30 inches.
I think I put a couple of magazines thru it in the Fall of 2021.
But I should say that I have had the gun for 7 years or so and shot it a couple of hundred times right after I bought it.
Have never had a jam and it is amazingly accurate. What I call rabbit hunting accurate.
It is a Taurus PT-22. In .22LR.

The “ within reason “ is the problem.
Most people are not able to do that for a variety of reasons.

.357 Magnum FMJ is one of the worst possible choices for defensive carry.
Too much over-penetration; too much muzzle blast for indoors.
Ever fired a .357 load without GOOD hearing protection in an enclosed space?
I have, and will never do so willingly again.

All human problems that can be solved with handguns can be handled with non-FMJ bullets in non-magnum loads.
Forget about one-shot stop ratings. Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice, and that tends to even out the differences in effectiveness between calibers and loads.

Pardon my ignorance. I see a lot of conversation about the advantages/benefits of carrying FMJ or Hollow points for personal defense. What is the disadvantage or no benefit for using semi wad or full wad? It would seem that you would want the full impact to STOP an attack. It would seem that a full wad or semi wad would be just as effective (but not as effective as a .45ACP which has lots of mass and stopping energy). Just asking ...

One of the major reasons not to use reloaded ammunition (remanufactured by someone like Black Hills doesn't count) has to do with gunshot residue testing. Should you be involved in a shooting where they actually do the CSI thing and test for gunshot residue to determine the distance the shooting took place, the ammunition used will be factory ammo of the brand your cases are.

Maybe 20 years ago in southwest Virginia there was a case where the shooter stated the shooting was at/near contact distance. State crime lab testing indicated this wasn't the case, he was convicted. Records from Federal indicated that the test ammo wasn't from the same lot as that used in the shooting, the powder was different and therefore the test was invalid. Case overturned on appeal and eventually he was acquitted.

The major ammo companies keep exemplar samples from each lot of each variety of ammo exactly for this purpose. Their records are that of an independent third party and court acceptable.

BTW, this is also one of several reasons you should avoid-if possible-any estimate of the distance any attacker was from you.

For post92, no particular advantage either way, but most full wadcutters are low velocity target rounds. There are some hard cast full wadcutter factory loads available. Where you put the bullet is far more important than it's shape, design or diameter.

Load whatever you have - It really does not matter if you shoot 'em in the head.

Side note:
Think about what you want to carry for self defence!

If you live in a state which has a true winter a 22LR, 22Mag & 25acp most likely will not penetrate heavy winter clothing.

Again, shoot 'em in the head.

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Who are? "They"

I prefer the Beretta 21A it was copied from over the Taurus. Nothing against Taurus (I have several) I just like the exposed hammer and single action option.
But I prefer the Iver Johnson PT-22 over either of them.
Just my personal preferences, YMMV.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

My choice for carry in 38 special and 44 special are hard cast full wadcutters.

45 ACP 230 grain FMJ.

I'm more concerned I get enough penetration. I'm just not confident in fragile bullets.

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Smith, and Wesson, and Me.

I like your choices, zzclancy. Except I like 200gr bullets in .45.

I like Sig Elite Performance V-Crown JHP in my Sig Sauer C3. With a name that long, it has to be great stuff.

I'd get FPFMJ if they made it. I don't think hollowpoints have any value in pistols, in fact, they may hurt by preventing adequate penetration. Great stuff in rifles, but it doesn't translate to pistol velocities.

Anyhow, the V-Crown ammo in the C3 just feels great! Just the right amount of BOOM! but still controllable.

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I've still got it made.

I like your choices, zzclancy. Except I like 200gr bullets in .45.

I like Sig Elite Performance V-Crown JHP in my Sig Sauer C3. With a name that long, it has to be great stuff.

I'd get FPFMJ if they made it. I don't think hollowpoints have any value in pistols, in fact, they may hurt by preventing adequate penetration. Great stuff in rifles, but it doesn't translate to pistol velocities.

Anyhow, the V-Crown ammo in the C3 just feels great! Just the right amount of BOOM! but still controllable.

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I've still got it made.

Winchester RED45 is 230 grain FMJFP.

Discussions about ammo effectiveness are always interesting to me. I've never shot a living creature, but in my 30 career I literally responded to more shootings than I can remember. I never saw a rifle or shotgun wound, but I've seen people shot with almost every handgun round imaginable.

The post above reminded me a call we had for a shooting at a gas station. The victim was standing in front of the passenger's door of a taxicab. There was a series of bullet holes from front to back along the right side of the cab, and three wounds in the victim, on the left, center, and right of his abdomen at the waist. There were corresponding exit wounds on his back...I remember thinking he'd obviously been hit by FMJ rounds.

Then there was the time we had an eighteen year old shot in the right side of his abdomen, between the waist and his ribcage. He ran for three blocks before collapsing. In the ER, the fluoroscope showed the unmistakable shape of a 230 grain FMJ .45 ACP...in his groin. Instead of exiting, the bullet had been deflected downward.

The one indelible lesson I learned from responding to those calls is that I don't ever want to be shot with ANYTHING! Once a bullet enters your body, all bets are off...