If your question is why didn't Winchester just reheat the .38-55... probably because you can't feed a rimmed .38-55 through an AR-15 magazine.
Why the .350 Legend?
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If your question is why didn't Winchester just reheat the .38-55... probably because you can't feed a rimmed .38-55 through an AR-15 magazine.
Yep and because of that .350 Legend sells more ammo in a day than .38-55 sells in a year. A business isn't going to survive by just marketing 150 year old cartridges.
There are some that have used both the 350 and the parent .223 to make .351WSL brass.
Quite a bit of info on the net if you search 'Making 351wsl brass from 223 brass'
The case head is just a little smaller in dia than the real .351. Not so much as to cause a problem.
The real issue is that the .223/.350L is a true rimless case.
The .351WSL is a semi-rimmed case and that's what it headspaces off of so you can roll crimp the bullets into place.
Not having that semi-rim on the .223/.350 brass means that the extractor is holding the case in place on the face of the bolt.
It seems to work OK if the OAL of the case and the loaded round are kept correct or at least correct for your rifle in that the chambered rd seats w/o any front to back movement (excess headspace).
The .351 brass has a large tapered relief cut in front of the semi-rim on the case for the extractor to sit down fully when gripping the case.
Some say to recut the .223 extractor groove in the cases to match orig .351 ammo case spec. Others say there is no need to.
venomballistics
Member
that's pretty much on target.
By and large the 350 Legend mimics the old 38-55.
Where the Winchester lever action needed a rim, the 38-55 fit the bill.
Today, the AR 15 is what the Winchester model 94 was. Naturally, it is being pressed into the same roles with such offerings as 300 blackout, 350 legend and 458 SOCOM
Therein lies a revival of the 30-30, 38-55, and 45-70 through these cartridges, in bottom feeder friendly form.
venomballistics
Member
I'm looking intently upon the 350 Legend myself. It seems to have the right numbers for most woodland roles.
I understand all of that... however this is Michigan and our system is messed up. We have a DNR list of legal calibers, Winchester got the 350 on it, the others did not. As far as I know, to the DNR a tapered case is not straight wall, and could be at odds depending on the DNR Officer you encounter. Short 45/70 has been tried but as I understand it, accuracy was not there. If a manufacture came out with a lever action, 45/70 chambered for a 1.8 inch case they might sell a ton, but they have not yet. Most hunters I know are ditching their shotguns and muzzleloaders for the new straight wall calibers.
venomballistics
Member
pssst ... 450 Bushmaster, 1.7"
Being AR platform, it's an upper and a mag.
I have not hunted in years so I don't know why I even bought a 350 or why I am posting in this thread....
That said, 450 BM is overkill for whitetail, horribly expensive, and hard on the shoulder. I have buddies that swear by it, and buddies that swear at it. In the end, what is the 450 offering that a 12 gauge sabot loaded shotgun is not?
The 350 factory ammo is much cheaper that 450 or sabots, reloading is just a little more involved than 357 magnum, and depending on what bullets you use, just a little more expensive. The round has much to offer.
venomballistics
Member
A better effective range and extends the practical applications of the AR 15 platform. The rest of its advantages lie in whether or not you hand load.
Personally, I'll fill its role with my 1895 in 45-70, though I might entertain 458 SOCOM .. just because.
Agreed. Where I can cite 450 BM as an answer to limitations set by certain states, the 350 has good numbers for the role. I believe it'll be better to live with all around. As soon as I am able, I will be adding a 350 to the safe. 450 or 458? .. only maybe
That’s much of the reaction on my part that prompted the post. I like lever guns and I like ARs but for different things.
I enjoy the feel and fairly primitive nature of a lever gun shooting a black powder era cartridge for hunting in woods and brush.
I’ve never been able to get real enthused about hunting with an AR. That’s partly old school bias, but largely way too much experience with hunters who are horrible shots maiming game that I’d often have to shoot to humanely kill when the Fudd ran his rifle dry managing to only gut shoot it or break a leg.
Frankly, I don’t think equipping them with ARs will improve the situation.
——
I also get why some fairly populated states want to limit the collateral damage from bullets raining out of the sky on those missed shots.
But there are much better ways to set parameters. All of the old black powder era rounds still have trajectories that are pumpkin like, even with smokeless powders. Discriminating between an AR toting hunter with a .350 Legend and a lever gun toting hunter with a .38-55 or .375 Winchester is incredibly stupid.
Rather than defining cartridges using an overly short case length, it makes more sense to establish a *minimum* bore diameter and a *minimum* bullet weight along with a suitably low *maximum* velocity. You might have to specifically exclude a few large magnum cartridges, but once you do that, heavy bullets at suitably low velocities will always have suitably arching trajectories.
It also makes sense to write in suitable exceptions, like the .30-30. It’s not flat shooting and it’s one of the most popular and prolific deer rounds in history.
venomballistics
Member
Yes... These regulations should be performance based rather than trying to regulate performance through cartridge design traits.
A 30-06 proofing blue pill cartridge was loaded to, I believe, 125,000 psi. The 1903 Springfield had to hold this that being the case, a straight wall standardized to 75,000 would soundly defeat the intentions of the cartridge trait based regulations.
A 30-06 proofing blue pill cartridge was loaded to, I believe, 125,000 psi. The 1903 Springfield had to hold this that being the case, a straight wall standardized to 75,000 would soundly defeat the intentions of the cartridge trait based regulations.
hkcavalier
US Veteran
I live in WA and bought a first-issue left hand Ruger American 16" in .450BM back in 2017. I live in thick woods and wanted something lighter than a Marlin Guide Gun. The only rifle requirement I'm aware of here is .24 caliber or greater, but the .450 is still fairly popular.
It may be overkill for the local whitetail, but it's a good round and I can take it out for bear too. Ballistically it's more or less identical to a 12g .45 sabot.
venomballistics
Member
Probably true enough in factory loads.
Upon more in depth review of the 350, it seems to be like a hyper active 38 super at the loading bench. It'll take either 9MM or 357 bullets.
115G HP @2800FPS might be a heavy varmint round or low carry over home defense. Not sure how a 115 XTP or gold dot would actually play in HD, but if employed against a skunk, the stink would likely be the only evidence remaining.
From the other end of the food chain, 180ish @ 2200FPS is a sound equation for a deer slayer and probably a fair bit more.
With all the territory to explore between the 115G point A and 180G point B, It promises more color than most
oddshooter
Member
The 350 Legend will go the way the 30 Super Carry, the 327mag and all of the other cartridges that have been lost to time. 50 years from now you will be able to go onto some future version of the website and see a S&W 350 Legend pistol for a ridiculous price because it is a rare collector gun that has hardly been shot.
This is one rabbit hole that I won't be going down. I am already going down the 460 Mag rabbit hole.
This is one rabbit hole that I won't be going down. I am already going down the 460 Mag rabbit hole.
Countrycuz
Member
I hope there is a S&W forum with handguns for sale 50 years from now. That said, the 350Legend has already caught on around here for deer. Revolvers, we will see.
venomballistics
Member
The 350 Legend will go the way the 30 Super Carry, the 327mag and all of the other cartridges that have been lost to time. 50 years from now you will be able to go onto some future version of the website and see a S&W 350 Legend pistol for a ridiculous price because it is a rare collector gun that has hardly been shot.
This is one rabbit hole that I won't be going down. I am already going down the 460 Mag rabbit hole.
No it won't. 30 SC and 327 FM were launched into the CCW market where its 38 380 9mm or 45 in accordance with the gospel
350 answers a hunting regulation problem while extending the practical applications of the AR platform rifle. It's quickly gaining a reputation as an easy handling straight wall deerslayer
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Hunting regulations can change. If the DNR thinks someone with a 30-30 lever action is too dangerous I doubt they will think an AR chambered in 350 Legend is fine. Many people that should know better would consider that "an ultra powerful assault rifle".
The future never seems to turn out the way I expected it to. I would buy what works best right now and not worry about if it will still be a viable choice 50 years from now. Not being a hunter I am going to pass on the 350 but might buy a 30 SC if it is chambered in the right gun. If I was a hunter in a state that doesn't allow bottleneck cartridges I would be looking at a 350.
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