If we wanted .40 S&W powered loads, we would have purchased something chambered in .40 S&W. It would only be a few pennies more per round for the extra powder.

HUGE swing in power levels depending on the manufacturer. I'm not talking about boutique loads either. Commercial loads swing between 400 to around 650 lb/ft. .357 SIG loads are in that range. Really quite puzzling.

Because many people want the ILLUSION of power more than they want the RECOIL that comes with ACTUAL power.

They can brag about their powerful gun while enjoying comfortable shooting.

On the lower level, you can blame the FBI. They adopted the 10 mm, but it was a reduced loading that the .40 S&W later equalled. Since the FBI ammo contract was big, and a lot of departments that jumped on the band wagon copied them exactly, a major chunk of the 10 mm ammo production was, ah, 10 mm Special.

Before we phased the 10mm out in 2006, the only ammo we could get in quantity was the FBI load. Then we couldn't even get that.

It's much easier to shoot a box of 180 grain rounds going 1100 FPS versus shooting a box 220 bullets doing 1200 FS. The 220 grain bullets doing 1200 FPS look awesome on paper but aren't much fun unless you train with hot rounds on a very regular basis.

It makes more sense for ammo companies to put out ammo that people will shoot box after box rather than shoot a magazine through their gun and then stop because their wrist and palm sting.

then you should have purchased a 9 or a 40.

I have a 357 revolver. I just shoot light 38 special loads, and practice with magnum loads to only get accustomed to recoil.

Have a Sig229 in 40 cal. I buy Underwood ammo that equals or betters 10mm and 357 Sig.

The original Norma 10mm ammo had box specs of
-170JHP 1300fps
-200FMJ 1200fps

Why? I can get a 10mm and get the best of both worlds

And I already have a dozen+ 9's, 45's, 357's, etc.

The blame can be laid on the FBI's doorstep as WR stated. In 1986 after the FBI Shoot Out with Platt and Maddox. The FBI wanted something more powerful than the 9MM. They opted for the 10 MM and found that a lot of agents could not handle/control the 10 MM. So then the .40 cal was introduced as the next great cop round. As further stated lots of civilian folks want the 10 MM, but at reduced loading so it was easier to handle. Hence the problems now.

I reload for my 610 and load both fullhouse loads and softball loads. The softball loads are easier on my 70 year old hands that have been beat up by 44 Mag and .45 ACP (can we spell arthritis?).

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

In an early DELTA ELITE the Norma 200 Gr. averaged 1139 for 5 shots.

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Good shooting.

Hand load here, 180g RNFP, AA#7, 1226 fps.
It's a 10mm as it should be!

Back in the day, .44 Magnum was the same way. CCI’s Blazer ammo in .44 Mag sold well because it was a mid range load - more of a long cased .44 Special.

But the buyers had the pleasure of shooting their .44 Mag with by-golly actual .44 Mag ammo and could stamp that on their man cards.

And out of real guns tested on YouTube it actually produced:
-170JHP 1219fps
-200FMJ 990fps

I remember the 170 grain Norma having a box velocity of 1400 fps but it has been many years since I shot it so I am not sure. In the early days of 10mm all I could find was the Norma and PMC ammo. The Norma ammo didn't live up the hype but was more powerful than the much less expensive PMC. Weak 10mm ammo is nothing new.

The current generation prefer light weight guns and non magnum rounds. The 10 mm full power load is suited for a steel gun.

The SAAMI spec for 10mm is 37500, 7% more than 35,000 PSI limit for 40 S&W. And the case is .1 inches longer. That isn't enough to produce the much higher power levels people now expect of 10mm compared to 40 S&W.

I was an early adopter of 10mm in the 80s and among the people I shot with it had a reputation for breaking guns. Particularly converted 45s like the Springfield Omega 10mm I had that broke twice before I traded it for a S&W 610. I remember reading in a gun magazine back then that the original ammo from Norma was loaded to much higher pressures, somewhere in the 43,000 PSI range. That early ammo actually did come pretty close to the advertised velocity. SAAMI saw all the broken guns and went with a reduced pressure limit. Norma never changed the numbers on the box but reduced the pressure. I haven't seen that anywhere online so it might have been pure speculation but it matches what I was seeing at the time.

And even that was too much for the FBI.

I don't believe velocity numbers from ammo makers unless I see or read an independent test somewhere. Because they often fall short of the actual numbers, particularly back in the 80s when chronographs were too expensive and finicky for most people to own. I feel the same way when I hear boutique ammo makers say their "full power" ammo is within SAAMI pressure limits. Maybe it is somehow possible but I want to see an independent test before I believe it and nobody but ammo makers have the equipment to measure pressure.

Guns have gotten better since those early guns in the 80s but a lot of people still have trouble when they try to feed their 10mm some super hot ammo from a boutique maker or their own handloads. A lot of guns work fine out of the box but having to use heavier recoil springs and making other modifications before the gun is reliable is all too common. The changes often match what people do to shoot 45 Super out of their guns designed for 45 ACP. Asking a light, polymer framed, striker fired gun to reliably fire a cartridge generating over 700 foot-lbs of energy is asking a lot. As a previous poster mentioned, ammo that powerful works better in an all steel gun with a heavy slide.

Makes a good story, just not a true one.

I came into the Bureau five years after the 4/11/86 shooting, and was a firearms instructor as a side duty for 20 years. I met some of the survivors as well as the FTU guys responsible for the 10mm.

There were two camps - heavy 9mm and .45 ACP. The 10mm was seen as a compromise. No full power 10mm was ever issued or considered. The FTU guys and the Ballistic Research guys took a 10mm case and started out low. When the 180 grain JHP went as deep as they wanted and expanded how they wanted it to they stopped and ordered a few million from Federal. That was the 180/950 load, later derided as 10mm Light. Funny thing, it worked great. Still does.

Of course later somebody realized they could use a shorter case that would fit in 9mm sized guns and the loved/hated .40 S&W was born.

I realize the internet loves the image of FBI Agents shrieking in terror, dropping their guns, and shaking their dainty wrists after touching off those fearsome 10mm rounds. Sorry though - never happened.

The FBI doesn’t issue ammo to other agencies, so any blame for adopting the .40 is on them. No need for blame, though. The .40 is a great round. Better than the 9mm, which has gained supremacy because it is cheaper.

For what its worth, most Agents I qualified loved the 1076 and many returned it under protest. I carried our other 10mm until a months before I retired.

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Rule of law, not a man.

Sig is correct.

John Hall was one of my academy instructors and had a chat or two with him in the Boardroom. He explained much about this whole topic.

Many of the agents I knew who had the 1076 would absolutely not give them up. When the Principal Firearms Instructor, or me (an assistant instructor) told them their 1076 was due for maintenance, they were smart enough to know that the gun vault would keep the 1076 and issue a Sig or Glock, so they conveniently kept "forgetting" to turn it in and held on to retirement.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

Reloading your own is the answer. My 610 will shoot my 40's when I want some plinking ammo, and my warmer home brewed 10mm when I want a thumper.

Just follow the manufacturer's reloading data, and don't try to be a modern day "Elmer Keith" with them.

Problem solved.

Buffalo Bore or role my own

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213th FBINA

That's pretty much how I remember it panning out.
It was born a hot little number for those who were done asking nice. but the FBI Miami shootout drew it into an unintended development cycle where this "service load" emerged to disappoint us all

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it just needs more voltage

One of the things wrong in this thread is saying the 40 S&W was created as a downloads and shorter 10mm cartridge. The 40 S&W was developed independently from the 10mm.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

The original flavor was too hot for the guns chambered in it.

If you want a .41 Magnum, an N frame revolver is what you need.

14.0 Gr. AA #9/Sierra 180 HP Averages 1236 FPS.

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Good shooting.

As Sig states, full power 10mm ammo was never issued to agents. A reduced load was developed as an alternative to the .45 ACP and 9mm rounds under consideration.

The FBI’s 10 mm load was reduced as it was felt the recoil and muzzle blast of the full power rounds offset its otherwise excellent performance.

That led to the 180 gr / 950 fps FBI load.

Read it all here:

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digiti...22334NCJRS.pdf


——-

It’s worth noting that the 180 gr 950 fps 10mm load wasn’t far off of the:

- time tested 180 gr 900 fps .38-40 load;
- the 200 gr 870 fps of the .44 Special; or
- the Elmer Keith suggested 200 gr 900 fps law enforcement load for the .41 Magnum.

There’s a reason they all hover around the same numbers - they all offer good terminal ballistic performance with manageable recoil that doesn’t adversely impact accurate shooting by the average law enforcement officer.

You can't really shoot a different caliber in a 10mm auto pistol.

I'm not sure what the issue is. There is a range of power of the factory loads because people like options. You can buy hot to lukewarm (obviously with an auto you can't vary power as much as you can with a revolver).

Whatever you want is available, or better yet, start reloading. For most people, absolute full power 10mm loads are overkill.

You left out the ever popular 45 ACP with 200 grain at 900 FPS or 230 at 830.

As noted these level of loads can be controlled by your average shooter and produce adequate results. A more powerful round isn't necessarily a better round.

That’s not entirely true.

The FBI developed the loaded down 180/950 fps 10mm load and then asked S&W to design a pistol for it based on S&W’s large frame 4506 pistol.

S&W did that, developing the S&W 1076, which was introduced in 1990.

However, while developing the 1076 S&W realized there was a lot of empty space in the case and that the same performance could be produced using a shorter case that would fit a medium frame pistol. The resulting S&W 4006 also came out in 1990.

So…yes…the .40 S&W was developed independent of any direct FBI involvement (and the FBI didn’t adopt the .40 S&W until 1997).

However the development of the .40 S&W was prompted by the FBI’s interest in the reduced power 10mm, and its asking S&W to develop a pistol for it, while S&W saw the potential to put a shorter cartridge with the same performance into a medium frame revolver.

In short, the .40 S&W wouldn’t have become a thing without the FBI developing the reduced power 10 mm load and S&W thinking there was a market for a medium frame friendly version.

S&W wasn’t wrong, but the AWB in 1994 and the various state imposed 10 round magazine limits that followed definitely helped .40 S&W popularity. The logic was that if couldn’t have more than 10 rounds of 9mm, you might as well have 10 larger rounds of .40 S&W in the same size pistol.

I probably should have included the .45 ACP as well since I stepped away from .40 caliber and included the .44 Special.

But yes, exactly the same principle - and that’s why the .45 Super and similar rounds don’t impress me.

In 1989 the FBI, did try out the 10mm that was said to have 708 ft/lbs of energy, but

It finally had to pass on this load with excessive recoil, in order for "All" of it's Agents, to be able to Qualify at the range test, that had a over sized grip, that caused a problem with many of their shooters.

Sigh. It never ends.

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Rule of law, not a man.

This is precisely why I do not buy any loaded 10mm ammoexcept Underwood, and precious few of those.
Sig 180gr practice stuff is pretty stout along with Federal American Eagle. Other than those two I dont buy any, I load my own. You wont find many 200gr 10mm loads at 1200fps or 1250 or 1300fps on the shelves anywhere.
I load them all too, 135gr all the way to 220gr. Personal preference is the 200gr but the 180's can smoke too.
The availability of weak for caliber amm9 might be why so many just dont like the 10mm, I dont know. They dont really know the 10mm if thats all theyre shootung through theirs.

“You can't really shoot a different caliber in a 10mm auto pistol.”
Not exactly true.
I have shot a lot of .40 out of a Glock 20. Like 38 out of a 357, scrub it out before going back to 10mm.
If that makes you nervous, plenty of conversion barrels.
For me, 400 ftlbs to 600ftlbs gives good flexibility of range.
Plenty for self defense at the low end. Good woods caliber at the higher end. I hear the same griping about 44 mag.
YMMV

Yep. I had a 1076 and it shot .40 just fine.

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Rule of law, not a man.

This is my understanding as well. D&D, the developers of the original Bren 10, shopped around for an ammo maker and Norma was the only one to step up. D&D spec'd 200 gr at 1200 fps fully expecting something like 200 gr at 1100 fps.

Only problem was Norma delivered on the original spec and the ammo gained a reputation of beating the guns to death.

I guess then that those people are too dense to realize that comfortable shooting does not equal power in the handgun world.

What length barrel? 12.1gr of A9 and a 200gr Nosler jhp gets me an 1172fps avg. Im shooting a 5"1911. You? Thx

I still have some of the original good stuff.

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Yes, you are right.

Just like Inspector Callahan.

I like the 10mm because at the low end it's a good self defense round and at the high end a good hunting/woods round as someone else previously pointed out. Before the 10mm you could only get this magnum power readily available in revolver. Now I've got fifteen rounds of magnum power as my everyday carry.

Unsupported chambers, guns that drop mags….the world isn’t ready for real 10mm loads.

Brother had a 1006 many years ago…. .41mag 215gr lead swc bullets sized down to .401 over a compressed load of blue dot. That gun rocked. You wanna stick that load in a Glock or Delta Elite or m&p? Maybe one of the Peter Stahl guns.

I think that neglects Jeff Cooper, who was already working on the 10mm when D&D approached him for advice and they combined efforts. The design was Cooper's.

Cooper's original specifications called for a 200gr bullet at 1,000 fps.

Does it really matter who developed it,and why, or when, or with who ( though I think Cooper should be recognized as the originator). Ive always disliked the 40s&w cartridge for my own reasons. The 10mm is a glorious round and I will continue to enjoy mine no matter the who, why, how or when of it. To me its as versatile as any other and more than others that can do many things well. A 135gr jhp at 1650fps up to a 200gr hst or GD at 1250fps and weights and velocities beyond those. Really? I know some 10mm hater will want to, have to argue semantics. And not every 10mm has an unsupported chamber and drops mags. My Dan Wesson Silverback has over 5 thousand absolutely trouble free rounds through it now and its a beast. It has never given me a single problem, and its stock except fir the occasional spring change for really stout loads.

I suspect all of the posters above are partially correct in how the 10mm came to be . All of the things being argued probably happened putting the 10mm round where it is today.

Maybe not. The 10mm Springfield Omega I owned had Peter Stahl stamped on the slide but I cannot remember if it was rebranded or just used something Stahl patented. It broke twice before I traded it for a S&W 610.

To be fair I bought it right after the 10mm cartridge was introduced and like many early 10mm pistols it was a 45 with a different barrel and recoil spring, not designed from the ground up to be a 10mm handgun.

Sorry to hear the stahl gun was a dud. My brother had one, I thought it was pretty cool (at the time). Lots of better options these days.