.40 vs 9mm

I like .40 s&w. I've been thinking of adding a couple more pistols in that caliber as well as more ammo when the price comes down a bit.

My favorite semi in .40 is a 1st generation M&P. It's a Pro Series with night sights that I changed the trigger to an Apex FSS. It used to be my carry gun and I wouldn't have any problem carrying it again.
 
My favorite .40 shooting was at an unnamed Indian reservation in the wild west. A drunk guy with a knife was banging on his sweetie’s door demanding some private time. Instead he got “Donna”, a 20 year veteran of the tribal PD. Fellas, there is no tougher creature on earth than a middle-aged female tribal cop.

She says drop it, he throws the knife (which actually sticks in the toe of her boot), then immediately realizes the error of his ways and turns just as Donna lets fly 180 grains of goodness. The bullet hits him in his right manboob, exits and draws a red line to the left manboob, perforates that one, and sails merrily on its way. He drops like a rock, dead. He thinks. Donna cuffs him and calls the ambo. He basically got four sets of a couple stitches each and a ride to jail.

She was a hoot. She was having a smoke behind the wheel of her tribal rig when I got there. It was raining a little but her window was down as a nod to the no smoking policy. I asked how she was doing and she tossed out the butt and rolled up the window while she was looking at me. Tough old gal.
 
One of the nicest thing about a M&P 40 is the ability to shoot 357 SIG with just a barrel change, and to shoot 9mm with just a barrel & magazine change...

And that goes for the M&P 40C as well!

Cheers!

P.S. The 40 S&W is alive and doing well! It can be loaded (& reloaded) with effective JHPs from 135 through 200gr depending upon the intended use. One is seldom undergunned with 40 S&Ws on board.
 
ACORN said:
I keep reading that the .40 S&W is going the way of button shoes because of advancements in bullet designed has improved the 9mms performance to nearly .40 levels.
Why haven’t .40 caliber bullets been designed along the same lines?
Click to expand...

Was under impression that .40 s&w and 45 acp bullets have been designed along the same lines? To me this means these two calibers will always have the size advantage over 9mm (excepting the size advantage for cc)

The initial reason i purchased a .40 was the all the free brass lying around, which just couldn't be passed up. Took a long time till a glock was purchased, and it was a G19. Have taken to pocket carry in winter and wanted something with more umph than the G19, but with similar capacity. So searched for and got 4th gen G23. Glad i did.

The ballistic and penetration tests are useful comparison devices, but imo they do not tell you what energy the bullet is carrying at certain distances through the gel. Nationwide standards seem to be based on being suitable nationwide, but am more concerned with suitability for NW Wi. So when warm weather is over and with it carrying a 1911 45 acp on a belt, a G23 goes into the front pocket.
 
Since someone brought up the S&W 1000 series........I was working for an entity located about half way between Quantico and Richmond. So, when the FBI & VSP went 10 mm the fearless leaders (retired VSP) did the me too thing. Oddly, when the S&W rep visited he strongly suggested we not jump on the 1076. Per him, the FBI was entranced by the Sig decocking system and pretty much told S&W that if they wanted the contract, they'd find a way to do it. We went with the 1006 with full power ammo and it served us well (~1992-2006) until we couldn't get ammo for it. Any ammo, we'd had to go to the FBI spec stuff several years previous.

Despite the N frame like reach to trigger, everyone's scores improved even with the full power ammo. [previous side arm the 681 & Federal .357 125 gr Magnum-the 10 had less recoil] Even our petite types did quite well including one nicknamed "the garden gnome".

When I belonged to IALEFI, the head trainer for a large LLEA near DC got talked into going from 9 to .40 when they bought new pistols. He went along and then later repeated vented about falling qual scores and recoil injury claims. The latter sounds like malarkey to me, but line of duty stuff was apparently common.

Somewhere I think I've still get a copy of an internal FBI memo that told the folks still inclined to gripe about ammo/service pistol issues that whatever the question, the 10 mm was THE ANSWER! Some parts of it were unintentionally funny-if you didn't work there.
 
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I've said it before and I'll repeat it as many necessary...

.40 S&W will not receive any enhancements because unlike 9mm Luger, it was designed to meet FBI Specifications. 9mm was improved because previously, it couldn't consistently meet FBI Specifications.

.40 S&W doesn't need any improvements, it's already performing exactly as it sas designed to and has earned its stripes as a capable duty cartridge.
However, 9mm Luger is cheaper, softer recoiling, and with modern propellants/bullet designs, meets FBI Specifications, thus making it a more attractive option for Law Enforcement Agencies.

That being said, .40 S&W is a more powerful cartridge, and when tested outside of the FBI's Ballistics Gel Tests, has some advantages such as superior straight-line hard barrier penetration and greater damage to bones, but said advantages are irrelevant to the majority of Law Enforcement Agencies compared to the cost savings and ease of training offered by 9mm.

Personally, I still carry .40 S&W and will continue to do so because I prefer it over 9mm, especially since two-legged threats aren't the only ones in my area, and I was able to save a lot of money years back by purchasing cheap .40s over 9s, so I'm not about to spend more money on 9mm Pistols when I already carry a more powerful firearm which I have no difficulty handling.
 
How many people have asked the same question on this site and others about the 45. The big 3 will be around as long as they keep making them in those calibers. I have carried all of them as well as 357mag in a wheel gun. All work as well as the jerk behind the trigger. I won't go as far as to say that the caliber doesn't matter but, more important is Location, Location, Location.

If they are designing a new 9mm, it won't be that much of a stretch to carry that over to the 40 and 45 as well as the 38/357 and more.

Why these questions are asked is the real question. Just post fodder I guess.
 
Develop good shooting skills and practice regularly and an informal cartridge treatise like this one will become much less important.
 
My completely unscientific take on calibers is that...excepting situations like an assailant high on dope where he feels nothing or wearing body armor...double- or triple-tapping him center mass will more than likely stop the assault...regardess of whether it's a .38, .357, 9mm, .40, 10mm or .45. I believe it's peripheral hits rather than center mass will be where the larger bore calibers will make a difference...they will hurt more.

Now I'm going down the rabbit hole of momentum theory vs. velocity theory here. Getting hit by any of the above will hurt and stop someone...and any of the above can also not stop someone. Every situation is different...every person is different in how they absorb bullets and do or don't keep going.

The best you can do is put the rounds where they count the most...assess and reengage if necessary. One thing we've been taught that in the real world...not controlled lab situations...is that you can do everything right and it can still turn to feces on you and you can still die.
 
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Any improvements in bullet technology or powder would apply across the spectrum.

The bean-counters are the main reason for the move to 9mm for agencies.

I believe today's ammo is maybe 5% more effective that what I learned to shoot with in the early 1950s.

It is all marketing, rationalization, and justification. Physics says bigger is better and faster is better.
 
ACORN said:
We’ve seemed to have strayed.
My question was why 9mm projectiles have been improved but 40s seemingly have not.
Click to expand...
The 9mm Luger cartridge was born roughly EIGHTY FIVE YEARS before the .40 S&W was born.

It only makes good sense that modern bullet (and propellant) technology found it's way to the 9mm around the time the .40 S&W cartridge actually hit the scene.
 
ACORN said:
We’ve seemed to have strayed.
My question was why 9mm projectiles have been improved but 40s seemingly have not.
Click to expand...
Of course they have. Any engineering improvements to 9mm have been applied to 40 and 45 as well. 9mm only approaches 40s&w performance in +P+ loadings, and that isn't a SAAMI spec.
 
ACORN said:
We’ve seemed to have strayed.
My question was why 9mm projectiles have been improved but 40s seemingly have not.
Click to expand...

They have. The FBI’s current issue 9mm is the Critical Defense 135 grain +P. There is also a Critical Defense .40 with a 175 grain bullet of the same design.

The issue is cost, not bullet performance.
 
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