Hi all, first post but I've been a member of the S&W family for ... well forever really.

What do you suggest as an optimal defensive round for a 6'' barrel and most importantly ... why? I'd like to have a lot of versatility, including in terms of range. This is a gun I take on outdoor trips for example.

I'm looking to for both full-power .357 mag ammo and softer shooting .38 special (probably +p) options for my (lightweight) 6'' S&W wheel gun.

The vast majority of info. out there is on snubbies and 4'' barrels. I have found a few threads about longer barrels but the info is pretty thin and dated. It does seem like the newer bullets outshine the more traditional options, but the 2'' and 4'' data makes me think it really is a goldilocks situation and I shouldn't assume that something great in 4'' will just be better in 6''. Fragmentation or under penetration at a higher velocity for example.

I have pretty good knowledge of all of the stories and lore out there about the legendary 125 gr. SJHP and FBI LSWC load etc. Not really looking for more of that. I'm more interested in targeted evidence/data so that I can get choose the best option out there.

I avoid lightweight bullets and loads for both cartridges. For me, 158 grain bullets get the nod and it doesn't matter whether it's a 2-inch barrel or a 8 3/8-inch barrel. Depending on the chore the 158s are loaded mild or wild.

I leave the lightweight bullets to lesser cartridges like .380 and 9mm.

You can build up a good head of steam in a 6-inch barrel.

With a 6" barrel, you can get good results from all SD ammo, made today.

Just pick the heaviest load that shoots well in your revolver, be it 38 or .357 magnum.

A 125gr JHP will work in the 357 but a 130-135gr jhp is bare bones for the 38 special, in my testing.

I also prefer 158gr loads in either .357 or .38 Special for my 6" 686+.

Thanks. Is it just lack of penetration of lighter bullets in 38 special or something else?

As I sit here today, the Winchester PDX1s are probably the frontrunner for the 38 special load. They seem to do very well out of a 4'' barrel other than penetration is on the margin. I was thinking that out of a 6'' barrel maybe the additional velocity could give them a little boost in penetration. They already seem to be fully expanded out of 4'', so it doesn't seem like there will be enough extra drag to overcome the velocity gain. I don't know, that's my best thinking though

Thanks. Do you just give up on expansion? I would not expect much of that from a big bullet like that certainly out of a 2'' barrel 38 and probably not out of a 4'' even.

For an old (no +P) 2'' I have, I need to do more research but currently leaning towards big lightly-loaded wadcutters or something along those lines. The idea is that I'm not going to get expansion from a big bullet at standard pressure and 2'' of barrel and without expansion, high velocity will mean over-penetration and additional recoil, etc.

I don't worship at the altar of bullet expansion as the one true way of measuring terminal performance effectiveness. If fact I don't place much stock in it at all.

I completely disbelieve all this noise about how modern 9mm ammunition with its nebulous, high tech advanced expanding bullet designs is now rendered fully equivalent to all other powerful handgun cartridges.

Expansion does a poor job off making up for bad hits. They're still bad hits.

I like bullet weight and the .357 Magnum deals in bullet weight really well.

Deep penetrating bullets, accurately placed are where it's at. Expanding bullets, poorly placed are still just bad hits.

For serious woods use I use Buffalo Bore 180 grain Hard Cast SWC "outdoorsman" load in 357 magnum. Why? Because for bears there is nothing better IMHO. It is smokin' hot and will hit hard!

A good 38 Spl. +P load is also a Buffalo Bore 158 grain SWCHP-GC. Probably the most powerful 38 special load on the market.

For plinking and target shooting I'd stick to 158 grain standard velocity 38 specials. If you can find the SWC's they make a nice clean hole. If not, the RNL is just as accurate, - just a bit harder to see the holes from a distance.

I have chronographed the Remington 158 gr LSWC-HP .38 Special +P at ~1000 fps from my 1942 6" Colt Official Police Heavy Barrel.

If you do not reload most Ammunition Companies make decent ammunition. As a policeman I had to put down two deer that had been hit by cars. A 38 Special +P 125 grain JHP did it both times, one shot only.

I like Winchester ammunition. The Police Department I retired from has used Winchester for the last thirty years or so.

I can vouch for both these loads. Very fast very accurate from my 4”&6” guns.

So what do you all think about Winchester Super-X 158 gr JHPs? I don't want to start a melee here but I'm not a huge fan of the LSWC bullets. I'd rather have a JHP. Also it sounds like you all would prefer something hotter like the Underwood version but launching a 158 grain slug at 1500 fps sounds like a very big blastoff to me. The Winchester 1200ish sounds fast enough for a slug of that size. Remember that this is for self defense, not bears

What chief38 said. The only thing I can add is that if you only wanted to deal with one, the Buffalo Bore 158 grain round he mentioned would do the trick nicely. There are a few other commercial loaders out there that do a similar loading. Underwood Ammo comes to mind. They would probably be fine as well.

If you have to have jacketed rounds, then all of the 158 grain 357 rounds will over-penetrate. In Lucky Gunners testing the only 158 jacketed round that actually expanded out of a 4" barrel was the Remington. However, it penetrated almost 20 inches. That is too much for a self defense round unless we are talking about big, furry, wild beasts. The Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 grain performed perfectly in the 357, as did the the Winchester Ranger Bonded +P 130 grain 38 special. You should go have a look at the chart at Lucky Gunner Labs.

Chief says use a 180 grain hard cast and you are saying a 158 gr JHP is too much penetration? If you are going by the LuckyGunner tests and worrying about over penetration, I'd think something like the 125 gr PDX1 would be best. It did very well in the tests. But I don't buy those tests completely since from what I've read the clear gel is not a great medium to use and tends to overstate penetration. l say that I'm starting to think in terms of situations where over penetration is not much of an issue (like if I'm out in the woods) vs situations where it is such a concern that it makes sense to take a step down in terms of performance. The folks on this thread don't seem to be too worried about overpenetration though ...

What do you mean by the last sentence?

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

The "New" Federal Micro 130 gr JHP is a good SD loading , for a J frame with minimal recoil
and the 135 Gold Dot is what a lot of people use to keep recoil down and meet SD standards.

Just that they might not work as well as the heavy 158 gr bullet in Winter time, when the bad guts have heavy jackets on, and layers of clothes, to keep warm.

I have yet to see a test with the 135 gr +P, out of a J frame snub nose, against a Navy Pea coat !!

This makes sense. It makes me think, I've been pretty focused on lead core bullets but maybe just the Barnes 140 gr monolithics or similar would be a good option in .357 for the outside scenario where overpenetration is not a concern. It's what I carry when I'm hunting so I'm already familiar with it. I'd expect over expansion to look like how Hammer bullets are supposed to work, the copper petals shearing off and the shank remaining intact, continuing through. Even if that happened in a sd scenario
and a 6'' barrel which I'm not sure is likely, it would still seem to be good terminal performance and not result in under penetration?

As for an optimal load out of the .357 x 6" Bbl. It all really depends on what you want the bullet to do. If penetration is the desired goal, it's obvious that the 158gr. will be best. If you want rapid expansion, definitely the 125gr. is the way to go. But then again it all depends on the bullet type and design. The 6" Bbl. falls into several categories. Hunting and target shooting for the most part... If you want to use the 6" Bbl. revolver for self-defense, why not get yourself a 2-4" bbl revolver and call it good? I think the downside of the 158 grain out of the 6" Bbl is going to be over-penetration. Not good. Personally, I think the 125 JHP is the way to go for SD out of a 2"-6" Bbl. I think the old-school jhp loads work extremely well. No matter what you decide, there is going to be a downside if you are thinking about every conceivable scenario. I live by the belief that it's best to find the right tool for the right job. No regrets.

Bullet tech has come a long way in the last 15 years. The 125 grain JHP has a great reputation from back in the day for the "one shot stop" and that was with bullets not as good as are available today AND largely with 4 inch duty revolvers. Two inches does not sound like much, but when you are burning gunpowder it really is. A six inch .357 shooting a 125 grain JHP is formidable indeed. When I lived in the country, a S&W Pre Model 28 .357 with a 6 inch barrel lived on top of my fridge. With 158 Grain Bullets it was my "Killing Gun". Skunks, racoons, and possum that invaded the compound all fell to that thing as it was as accurate as a rifle. But the 125 would be a better choice for defense. Many of the 158 grain bullets are for hunting, and don't expand as quickly. For the Magnum, 125 JHP. For the 38 Special? I would go with a 158 Grain Lead Semi Wadcutter Plus P. Lead can be pushed faster than a jacket and expands, well, like lead with no tough copper jacket to fight. Remember, the 158 grain LSWCHP plus P was THE police round and it worked great. They went to semi autos for capacity, not because the bullet didn't work. The lead round nose .38 Special was a widow maker for the cop shooting it, but the 158 grain LSWCHP +P was and is the real deal.

Essentially, a non-problem. Whatever works well in a 2 or 4" barrel typically will work as well if not better in a longer barrel. Any defensive load for either caliber should work quite well in your revolvers.

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Pisgah

Welcome aboard!

So, what you did here is, unintentionally, you started a bear thread. Those are threads where everyone gets emotional and heated when discussing the best round for self-defense against bears in the woods.

WELL DONE!

Even if nobody jumped on it, very well done.

But, let me stay away from bears and make one note. .357 Magnum rounds for self-defense are really only good for the bear woods. Oops. I said it, anyway. You do not want to use that much power in your home unless you literally live in the woods and have no neighbors. Except for your brick walls you're risking over penetration and any miss could injure a bystander/neighbor.family member. Jus' sayin'....YMMV

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Come and take it!!

Yep, not asking about bear defense. This is about getting the most out of the very versatile .357 magnum in self defense situations, ranging from the typical close range, indoor with over-penetration concerns to isolated wide open outdoors at range, where I really would rather have a long gun, and the attacker might have one. The question about .38 special is for the first type of situation, and to have ammo in two calibers instead of just one for more logistical concerns. The question about the .357 is for the second. The idea is to try to find a load that makes the most of the .357's extra power and have something that hits and reaches out a little bit more like a rifle than a Glock 19 or what not. yes, I know a .357 handgun is no rifle, but I think a cartridge that can launch a 158 grain projectile at 1200 to 1500 fps is a good deal closer than a 9mm. but I know enough about ballistics to know that if you aren't using the right bullet at the right velocity, all that the extra power is just going to give you more bang, muzzle jump, recoil and wear on the gun.

one other thing I'll say is that I'm not going to use my .357 for my home defense gun. This is about away from home, where having only my .357 mag is something I can imagine since it is probably the most versatile single gun I own especially if you can only take what you can carry on your back.

IMO a .357 Magnum is a .357 Magnum, there is no "bad bullet" in that cartridge. You might want to be picky with a .38 Special but a Magnum? Of course, like mentioned above, over penetration is a concern but as for stopping someone, if they are hit with a .357 they usually stay hit.

I'm a fan of the 158gr bullet even in a .357 Magnum. Nothing wrong with a 158gr bullet @1250fps to do the job at hand. Of course there is also nothing wrong with a 125gr bullet if that's your preference.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I can't believe this, 24 replies and no one even mentioned that commercial ammunition is not loaded to give "best" performance in a specific barrel length. Buy a chronograph and a variety of ammunition and check that ammunition for velocity in your guns, that's the only way you will get an answer to your original question!

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Gunsmithing since 1961

Can't argue with that

Just to close this out, I decided to stick with .357 Barnes 140 gr Vor-Tx XPB as an all-around outdoor round and Buffalo Bore .38 special +P 158 gr. LSWCHP for a lighter load where over-penetration would be a concern. Out of a 6 inch barrel, it seems like this load will give ballistics getting close close to some .357 mag loads, but I can shoot it out of .38 special guns as well as magnums. I wanted to pick up a lighter 357 load (probably 125 gr. Golden Sabers) but ballistically I don't know if that would offer much above and beyond the hot and heavier Buffalo Bores.

For my old 38 snubby, I picked up some Federal Train + Protect 158 gr. standard pressure "Versatile Hollow Points" which seem to just be LSWCHPs. I don't expect expansion from these at around 800 fps or maybe less, just going the wadcutter type route. Full wadcutters seem to be hard to come by currently.

And of course some cheap 38 130 grain fmjs for practice.

The .357 is really a super versatile caliber.

I have never recovered a hp bullet from a 5 inch or longer bbl. that wasn't fully intact and expanded.That is in jell with or without bluejeans or just water jugs.158 &125 federal winchester and remington.

Just an observation...If you want a bullet that behaves predictably and reliably the same from a long or short barrel, high or low velocity...then I would use a LSWC. It will perform the same over a wider set of variables than any other. No need to worry about if you are pushing it too fast or too slow(within reason). Accuracy and power from the muzzle to as far as you can hit. Among the least expensive bullets to make practice ammo with. Thus you will be better able to hit your target, the most important consideration. I carry and use semi wadcutters for almost all of my revolver uses. There are perhaps more effective hollow points that work better under some circumstances, but SWC performance is never a mystery. For target, plinking, small game, large game, bad actors it's all the same. In 6 inch 357s I will carry 38 spl. LSWC factory or handloads that get 850 to 1000 fps in the gun. I also may carry some factory or handload 357 rounds in an ammo wallet or speed loader for "just in case" situations. I've never had to use them in my life. I carry similar loads in my 44 magnums, 44 specials, 45 auto rim revolvers for the same reason.
If they made a LSWC that worked in my Glock 26, I would carry that as well!

I've had good results with a 140 grain cast lead SWC from an H&G #12 mould in a Beretta 92. Accurate and feeds and functions without problem. I doubt you'll have the same versatility with a Glock, but it might be worth trying.

I know we’re drifting a bit here but I load 147 grain TC coated hard cast from Summit City for my 9mm’s. Full power standard pressure with Silhouette works great in my Glock 19’s. ACME has coated 150 grain 9mm SWC’s but I’ve never tried them.

I’m also a huge fan of 158 grain SWC’s. Summit coated 158’s have shot well with Win 244 and HS-6 from standard pressure 38 to midrange 357. Going to try some with AA#9 in 357 soon……