If you have been wondering about the really .38-44 loads that both BB and Underwood make...

Pressure with all the loads is running in the 28-29K psi range...much more than the BigThree +P but still a lot less than .357s...and 9mm from J-Frames...

I carry both the BB loads in a 649-2 and Colt Diamondback...no concerns here...YMMV....

Bob

ps...Mods removed the link but one can PM me and will direct you in the right direction...

Interesting article with definitive data. Not something I would pursue, but others may find it worthwhile.

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Life of the party until 8:00PM

the funny thing is...

if the gun is actually BUILT to SAAMI standards, random use will be fine.

If the gun is built to CIP standard,,, its like shooting +p in the gun.

If you have a normal 357 magnum, stop worrying.

but yes, buffalo bore is technically breaking the law by selling 38-44 loads as specials

What law are they breaking?

There is no such law. SAAMI specifications are advisory, not statutory. Take the SAAMI “+P+” designation. All it means is that the peak chamber pressure exceeds the +P level established and recommended by SAAMI, but not by how much. If a manufacturer wished, a +P+ cartridge loading could be 100,000 psi. All he had to fear was a negligence lawsuit from someone blowing up his gun and injuring him from their use.

Back in the day, .38 Special high pressure “.38-44” loads were given other names. For example, Remington called them “Hi-Speed,” Peters called them “High Velocity,” Winchester used “Super Speed,” and Western called them “Super-X.” For the most part, the “.38-44” designation did not appear on any ammunition box label from any maker, except Remington during the early days of the cartridge. Most shooters didn’t know or care anything about high pressure or blowing up their guns, they just used them in any .38 Special revolver they had. All that Remington’s pre-war ammunition catalogs had to say was a caution to the effect that recoil would be greater if used in a light frame revolver. Not a syllable suggesting that the chamber pressure was greater than standard or that such loads could damage some revolvers. Below is what the 1938 Remington ammuntion catalog had to say:


I once unsuccessfully looked for printed information revealing the lab-measured peak chamber pressure of the early .38-44 loads. I did crank some information and assumptions through the QuickLoad computer program, coming to the conclusion that it had to be at least 25,000 psi. I still believe that is in the ballpark.

Looking at BB and Underwood ballistic information, it seems apparent that the only thing they are doing is simply duplicating the aforementioned .38-44 level factory loadings of yesteryear. It is not at all difficult for any reloader to do the exact same using H110/296 or 2400 propellants. Recipes do exist.

From the Remington 1938 catalog Re .38-44 Special ammunition:

"Also safe to use in Smith and Wesson and Colt revolvers chambered for the .38 Special cartridge if they are in good condition. In some lighter models the recoil is noticeably heavier."

At an estimated 25,000 PSI this certainly puts the lie to to all the stories that current .38 Special +P at only 20,000 is an issue in steel .38 Special revolvers! There is an essentially identical remark found in "McHenry & Roper" regarding the original ca. 1935 2" S&W M&P revolver, that the .38-44 ammunition was an acceptable alternate loading for that model! I have seen the same 25,000 PSI pressure estimate that DWalt remarked on for old factory .38-44 ammunition in many sources and over many years going back at least 30 years. As I recall it even appeared in an old article in "Handloader".

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Gunsmithing since 1961

However there be a distinction we have to make..

I do not believe that it was considered wise to for a person to purchase a Model 10, or perhaps take grampas victory model 38 special revolver, and fire nothing but 38-44 cartridges in it.

I kind of think it was a "the gun WILL survive, it wont be enjoyable to hold onto... so do so in an emergency".

Sort of how I have seen alot of old day law enforcement describe "we carried our .357 magnum K frame with a cyliner of skeeter 38 special case magnum loads, and belt of normal 38 special"

Bob, if they look over on Cast Boolits, they will find it...........

Larry did a good job on that, as usual........

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

on cast boolits?

alot of cranky people, with even narrower fan boy visions of granduer.


Nothing more, nothing less,,

I don't know what you base your remarks on; that's a good site with the exchange of much useful information, about the same as this one. I think you'll find about the same percentage of cranky people on every site.

What does "narrower fan boy visions of grandeur" mean?

They remind me of some of my Handloads.
Which I mostly shot is 357s.
And at $2 a round, I probably wouldn’t shoot many of these.
And once again mostly in 357s.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

Different perspectives on higher pressure .38 Special factory loads...

for those who were shooting before the +P designation came out in the early '70s, virtually no one questioned the use of the hotter ammo in any sound, good-quality gun chambered for the .38 Special cartridge, even alloy-framed revolvers. That's not a recommendation, that's how things were.

I asked a long-time Sierra employee I had known for years why Sierra made no distinction between standard pressure .38 Special loads and +P loads in their loading manual (this was the manual before the current one which does have two separate load levels).

His response was that Sierra believed all the suggested published loads, even the stouter ones, were safe for use in any .38 Special revolver in good condition. Regardless of my thoughts or anyone else's thoughts on the matter, it's hard to argue with Sierra's logic. Again, different ways of looking at this.

Smart shooters/handloaders who read credible material from reputable sources and further their education by judicious testing and shooting, whether using factory ammo or handloads realize the wear-and-tear consequences of shooting higher pressure ammo. Personal choices are fine if you have adequate background.

I'm not talking about some lesser YouTube education here.

The response is appreciated. I've found it to be a very useful site for fifteen years or more.

Lyman reloading manuals of the pre +P era offered .38 Special recipes which were ballistic duplicates of “.38-44” loads, using both 2400 and Unique. At least Lyman did recommend that their loads should be used only in heavy frame revolvers. For 158 grain lead bullets, the load given is 11.8 grains of 2400, with MV shown as 1220 ft/sec. I have not tried loading up any of them as a test. No jacketed bullet loads are provided, but back then, nearly all revolver bullets were lead. Even factory .38-44 and .357 loads of the time used lead, or at least lead bearing surface, bullets. As most know, for otherwise identical loads in the same gun, lead bullets will provide a significant MV advantage over jacketed bullets as there is less friction with the bore.

Another great thread, thanks OP! Even before joining this & other S&W forum have been dubious of newer Smiths. Sad to hear of factory returns for manufacturing problems. i know...some have no problems & that's good. Must say tho with coupla exceptions mine are no dash or no more than -3. OP's looks to be fine example. Never had fit, function or quality concerns with my 40-70's models. In this day of make'em & move'em am happy with the oldies like me. Me thinks the craftsman mindset of old is bout gone. Good ammo post too.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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And so it goes...

Opps! Posted in wrong thread. Can't move to "my new model 15-3"?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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And so it goes...

I find it interesting that the 38-44 Heavy Duty revolver came out in 1930
with its high pressure ammo,

while the M10 and other 38 revolvers did not receive "Steel" cylinders in them
that were finally heat treated, to solve cracks from shooting high pressure loads,
until 1954.

In the 1970's, Winchester was the first ammo company to advise of ammo that was
listed as a +P type ammo , for the K frame revolver.

That "Hot" ammo, must not have been too dangerous, for them to wait
40 years to finally slap a +P label on a box of ammo for LE personnel ?

IMO that's not right. The 40 years there was no +P designation because before 1972 SAAMI didn't recognize +P ammo. You can't mark a gun +P if there are no +P ammo ratings.

Its a little like finding an ancient coin. It can't be real if the date stamp is 1025BC. How could they know?

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

You are confusing all steel K-frame revolvers with the Air Force M-13 revolver which was the precursor of the commercial Model 12 which is the Military & Police "Airweight" that originally had both an Aluminum frame and cylinder. These are the guns that had issues with cylinder cracking which resulted in the cylinder material being changed to the same steel used in the standard M&P.

Originally heat-treating of K-Frame cylinders began in 1918. I have no way of proving this, but it is my belief the heat-treating was to reduce battering of the cylinder stop notches, not to increase the strength of the cylinder that is usually assumed! Heat-treating of K-Frame cylinders was continued until after WWII when it was discontinued as it was no longer necessary because the strength of the material as received from the mill was deemed to be adequate as-is, without the additional process during manufacture.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

After reading the entire thread on this subject on the Cast Boolits forum I have some concerns.

First: Only the two Underwood loads were tested, not the Buffalo Bore.

Second: The Underwood loads were tested at ca. 28,000-29,000+PSI and they claim they are +P SAAMI standard loads! These exceed the SAAMI specification for +P by nearly 10,000 PSI! Obviously they should be classified as +P+ by a wide margin! They exceed the original .38-44 factory load velocities by 100-150 FPS. Why did Underwood feel necessary to load to such velocity levels. Depending on source original .38-44 loads show velocities of 1115 to 1150 FPS.

They claim these loads are safe in any .38 Special revolvers, which would include all models using Aluminum alloy frames including Scandium, both K-Frame and J-Frame guns! I can guarantee none of either the Buffalo Bore or Underwood ammunition will ever get near any of my Airweight revolvers!

I acknowledge that the Airweight guns are far stronger than many believe they are. I have inadvertently proven this to myself which I have previously posted about, but to diverge so greatly from SAAMI standard pressures or +P levels seems irresponsible at best!

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Gunsmithing since 1961

An early copy of Lyman's reloading manual shows they used a 6" K38 to obtain the quoted velocities with the 11 gr 2400 and 6 gr Unique loads

"First: Only the two Underwood loads were tested, not the Buffalo Bore."

Look on page two...the pressures and velocities were almost the same...

If one looks in the 1950s and 60s SHOOTERS BIBLE under the Colt section, they rated their steel frame .38s, as in Detective Special and Police Positive Special D-Frame guns, for High-Speed .38-44 ammo...they did not recommend it for the alloy Agent and Cobra.

Have been using the 6.0 grains of Unique/Lyman-Thompson 357156 load for years in all steel .38s...they run just under a grand in the 649-2 and just over 1100 from a 4" Heavy Duty. The primers are round and most times the shells will just drop out of the chamber if the gun is inverted and shaken... I've seen Lyman book loads of 6.3... SR4756 is even a better powder...

A lot of informative posts on the .38-44 here...

38 SPL +P+ or 38/44 Loads with 170 gr Cast Bullets & 2400

There have been test with a S&W M15 where ammo was tested in it that was above the standard 158 Lwc at around 890fps and a 125 gr JHP at 945fps .

These test in that 4" revolver had a 125 JHP Super Vel doing 1089fps
and a lead 158 gr bullet doing 930fps.

I think they knew about the fps and high pressures;
maybe they though that their revolvers were up to the task,
of shooting it?

However, these loads were tame, compared to the 38-44 loads
with their beefed up frame.

Pretty sure I have loaded 12 Grains of 2400 in 38 cases.
With 150 and 160 Grain cast bullets. Lyman Molds, Elmer pattern.
Shot them in 357s.

__________________
NRA LIFE MEMBER

I don’t personally intend to shoot a lot of the Underwood or Buffalo Bore load, which should probably be marked +P+, but it is not a bad thing to have some in reserve. I tend to load my own .38 special ammo with 155 to 170 grain SWCs at 900 to 990fps. If I want milder ammo I have a good bit of older mild factory loads. These were purchased by the Case with free shipping and no taxes during better times. My M – 15–3 usually has a couple of my hand loads and at least one heavy fmj and a couple +P SWCHP hand loads in the cylinder. It’s nice to know that by loading six of the Underwood Loads my M-15 can stand in for a .357.

__________________
dd884
JMHO-YMMV

Post I did on another Forum:

Was looking at a 1948 SHOOTERS BIBLE last night. In the factory cartridge section it has listed the loads that were available in .38-44.

Remington and Peters:
158 grain Lead
158 grain Metal Piercing
110 grain "SPL" (Highway Patrol Metal Piercing)

Winchester:
158 grain Lead
158 grain Metal Piercing
150 grain Metal Piercing

Western:
150 grain Lubaloy Coated
150 grain Metal Piercing
200 grain Lubaloy Coated

In the Factory Ballistics section they list all the Remington and Peters 158 grain loads (Lead and MP) at 1115 fps.

Western 150 grain (MP and Lead) at 1175 fps

Winchester 150 MP at 1175 and the 158 Lead 1115

All were listed from a 5" barrel. It also states that the .38-44 loads were now DISCONTINUED probably because the .357 was introduced.

...a shame that the other Highway Patrol loads were not listed...would have been interesting.

Found a S&W Factory brochure probably from just before the .357 was introduced, as it was not listed as a factory round. The listed velocity of the 158 grain .38-44 was 1125 fps, 444 ft. pounds of energy and penetrated 12 7/8" pine boards spaced 7/8" apart. It did not list a barrel length. By comparison the .38 Special 158 grain bullet was 847 fps with 252 ft. pounds of energy and penetrated 8.5 boards. The .44 Special 246 grain bullet was 767 fps and 323 ft. pounds and penetrated 7.5 boards...

These velocities correspond with the loads in the old Lyman Reloading Manual I have. The Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman and LSWC-HP loads are just a little faster than these old factory 158s and the same as the 150s.

From the BB Website:
Item 20A: 158gr., very soft cast, semi wad cutter, (Keith) hollow cavity, with a gas check. This bullet will mushroom violently on impact and will penetrate roughly 14 inches in human flesh. Again, this bullet is gas checked and will not lead your barrel.

➤ 1,040 fps (379 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 60, 2-inch
➤ 1,059 fps (393 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 66, 2.5-inch
➤ 1,143 fps (458 ft. lbs.) -- Ruger SP101, 3-inch
➤ 1,162 fps (474 ft. lbs.) -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch

ITEM 20H

PRESS RELEASE FOR BUFFALO BORE 38 SPL +P 158gr. HARD CAST OUTDOORSMAN

This load was designed for those who need a deep penetrating 357 mag. or 38 SPL load to be fired from lightweight alloy 357’s and any 38 SPL revolver. Lightweight alloy 357’s develop multiple problems when firing our 180gr. 357 mag. hard cast turbocharged (Item 19A) ammo or any make of full power 357 ammo. Yet many folks want a deep penetrating “outdoor” type of load for their lightweight pocket 357’s, so here it is. Whether you are shooting gators or bears in the head, this load utilizes a hard flat nosed bullet, at sufficient velocity, even from 2-inch barrels, to fully penetrate either.

This load is safe to shoot in all 38SPL and 357 magnum firearms of modern design that are in normal operating condition. In the super lightweight alloy revolvers (around 11-12 oz.) the bullet will not jump crimp under recoil provided you do not subject an unfired round to more than 5 or 6 firings. In all steel guns, even short barreled ones, crimp jump is not an issue as all steel snub-nosed revolvers are much heavier than the alloy versions.

This load utilizes a flash retardant powder that will not blind the shooter in low light conditions, which is important as wildlife and criminals get much more active when darkness comes.

This bullet is hard cast and properly lubed and as such will not substantially lead your barrel. You should find no degradation of accuracy when firing many cylinders full of this ammo without cleaning.

We never use extra long laboratory barrels to produce our advertised velocities, which we feel is dishonest to the customer as those extra long barrels produce extra high velocities, which you cannot duplicate with stock revolvers in the real world. Instead, we use stock firearms and you can see the velocity results below.

➤ 1255 fps -- Ruger GP 100, 6 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 1186 fps -- S&W Combat Masterpiece 6 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1958)
➤ 1146 fps -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch barrel, 357 Mag.
➤ 1167 fps -- S&W Mod. 15, 4 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1968)
➤ 1112 fps -- Ruger SP 101, 3 inch barrel, 38 SPL
➤ 1043 fps -- S&W Mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 989 fps -- S&W Mod 340PD, 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 1027 fps -- S&W Mod 642 (pre-dash), 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 38 SPL

I believe they have confused the Model 15 with the Masterpiece. A Model 15 is a Combat Masterpiece and has a 4” barrel. A Model 14 is a K-38 Masterpiece and has a 6” barrel.

Could well be....that said according The Book, there were 6 and 8 3/8" Model 15s but not till the 1980s...