Vaguely remember reading some "Skeeter" stories about loading the bullet in the case upside down for "defense" ammo?
That was the load I was initiated to by the Fairchild AFB Security Police. After I had finished helping them with a shooting project they were doing I was rewarded with a coffee can full of freshly reloaded 38 Special cartridges. On the lid was written 148gr. HBWC over 3.5gr. of Red Dot. The bullets looked like little lead ice cream cones, I couldn't wait to try them out. Deadly accurate at pistol ranges and one could only imagine the result of that massive hollow point expansion. I learned later that was what they carried in their duty Smith's.
An overlooked use for target wadcutter loads is small game hunting. They are effective on squirrels rabbits as well as pests.
there is a .22LR called a quick shot, that is a segmented almost wadcutter that fragments into 3 pieces in small game. If I hunted small game, I'd use them for sure.
As another aside, the hot set-up back in the days of Bullseye competition, was to empty your piggybank into a box along with your gun, and send it off to THE gunsmiths of the day. The gun came back with the cylinder the same length as a wadcutter cartridge, and a made to order barrel which was set back to meet the cylinder---as in ZERO throat length. That was immediately decried as "NO FAIR!!"---at least until you get one of your own---and at least have a chance of winning.
There was a gunsmith in my hometown, Fred Schmidt, who did a "short cylinder" conversion for wadcutter, PPC guns. I didn't know PPC from ABC in those days but that gun was COOL. Not that I ever actually SAW one, just the pictures on his flyers that were in just about every gun shop in town. I don't know what he charged for that conversion, but I was sure it was more than I could afford, considering that I could barely scrape up the $2.00 for a box of reloaded wadcutters at times.
I still sorta look for one at the LGS. I'm not sure what I'd do if one ever turned up. I have been tempted by a couple of PPC guns from that era.
Back in 1976 when I was in Basic LEO training we shot lots and lots of .38 special wadcutters. We carried nickel S&W Model 10s. A company named 3D (no longer in business) was the supplier of the reloaded rounds. Guess it made it easier for the range officers to score the targets. If I see some on the shelf I buy it.
I don't think anyone has mentioned they are an excellent small game getter for .38/.357 revolvers. Very accurate, low noise, and the full flat profile is a great killer.
Back in 1976 when I was in Basic LEO training we shot lots and lots of .38 special wadcutters. We carried nickel S&W Model 10s. A company named 3D (no longer in business) was the supplier of the reloaded rounds. Guess it made it easier for the range officers to score the targets. If I see some on the shelf I buy it.
Back when I was first getting into handguns in the mid - 1980's the fad of the time was 110 grain or 115 grain jacketed hollow points in either 38 Special or 357 Magnum. One dealer had boxes of Western 38 wadcutters on his table; I bought all of it. At $11 a box it was cheaper than reloads!
Ii competed in PPC, wadcutters ruled the winners stand! Anytime someone asked what load was being used, the answer would be something like 2.7 or 2.8 meaning the number of grains of Bullseye under the wadcutter bullet. HBWCs were the standard but DEWCs were also competitive. I started buying HBWCs by the thousand and ended up buying 3/4 pallets or even full pallets. I was casting DEWCs but that took time and time was something I did not have to spare.
I had read about the HBWC reversed gimmick and tried it. Decent accuracy but lousy penetration. As I recall, I used 3.0 grains of Bullseye under the reversed HBWC. It flew quickly to the target and made nice groups. I had a problem with o’possums and my garbage pails. Late one evening a o’possum was dining in my trash. The GSD was going nuts so I grabbed my revolver (either a 4” Model 15 or a 3” Model 36-1) and went out. The range was less than 15 feet and I plugged old ugly solidly just behind the shoulder. He was visibly upset and knocked from the top of the can to the driveway. He started to walk away! The next shot, between the shoulders, anchored him. I immediately fired a third one into the base of his skull. Either the second or third shot killed it, not really sure which. A necropsy verified what I had thought. The damn reversed HBWC expanded well but did not penetrate. The first shot broke ribs and bruised a lot of meat but did not penetrate to the heart or off lung. The second shot busted the spine but did not exit. The third shot was found lodged in the skull, above where molars would be found. All expanded to nearly quarter size, none penetrated more than 2-3 inches.
I also experimented with DEWCs cast a bit harder and launched a 900 fps from a 6” revolver. Great penetration and a little riveting of the bullet nose. I carried these for SD in my 38 S&W Special.
I still carry wadcutters in my edc, but nowadays they are 45 caliber.
I have been hearing of loading inverted HBWCs for decades and how they were such a great defense load. IMO if that were the case you would think that every ammo manufacturer would have them in their line up. I suspect that the fact is that they would perform just as Strawhat experienced, dramatic expansion and inadequate penetration.
Back in the 70s there were “ Quad loads”, 38 Spl. loaded with 4 slant base wadcutters stacked in the case with WC crimp. Our range tested them in 2”-6” revolvers. 6” gave best results with projectiles spreading out to about a 4”-5” circle from 15 yds. Not what was wanted. Dept did not issue any and all Officers we knew wanted 125-158 JHP in 357 Mag.Still have a few around somewhere.
I have been hearing of loading inverted HBWCs for decades and how they were such a great defense load. IMO if that were the case you would think that every ammo manufacturer would have them in their line up. I suspect that the fact is that they would perform just as Strawhat experienced, dramatic expansion and inadequate penetration.
A 1970s fad of questionable value. There was probably little or no extensive subjective testing done. More of a "conventional wisdom" project.
A fad, yes, but not unacceptable with proven variants. The Federal 130gr HST Micro performs well in short barrels. 12" penetration, expansion upwards of .60 inch. Years ago, Alberts made a 146gr HydroShok which was a reversed HBWC, but had a post in the center. My own water jug tests showed it always penetrating 3 1-gallon jugs, and expanding up to .65-.70 inch. The HST is a +P load, my handloads of the HydroShoks were not.
As noted, the upside-down hollow base wadcutter was useful as a very short range SD round. Loaded a bunch for a liquor store owner who didn't want over penetration in his vulnerable little store, but something that would get things done. 3 gr of Bullseye was pretty stout but worked well in appropriate testing....
The Federal 130 HST? I'm not familiar with it, but it doesn't sound like a 148 gr. HBWC, the topic here. The Alberts bullet with a post, not familiar with that one either. Again, I think the topic was regarding plain cast HBWCs, at least that's what I remember from the '70s, no posts, etc.
I may have overlooked something, but I don't recall ever reading anything regarding extensive objective testing of cast reversed HBWC if it was ever done. It seems most everything was subjective and there wasn't much of it that was comprehensively undertaken.
I don't shoot 38 target loads as much as I used to, but I still have over 2,000 38 wadcutter bullets in my loading room. I need to dig them out and take them to a gun show or flea market, but most of the young guys wouldn't know what they are!
If any of you shoot segmented .22 ammo, I had problems with one brand
that would not expand or that it would send particles flying in all directions
after it hit my target.
I have been hearing of loading inverted HBWCs for decades and how they were such a great defense load. IMO if that were the case you would think that every ammo manufacturer would have them in their line up. I suspect that the fact is that they would perform just as Strawhat experienced, dramatic expansion and inadequate penetration.
Before there was the Federal Hydrashok ammo with the post in the nose there was a company called Scorpion who made a reversed wadcutter design .38 with a post in the nose. I believe Federal bought the rights which led to the Hydrashok. At one time I had a couple of boxes of the original. Probably still do somewhere. The attached pictures are off the internet.
I don't recall which but there is one of the major ammo companies selling jacketed reversed HB wadcutters defensive ammo. Loaded hotter than target WCs.
Years ago some of us played with the reversed HBWC. At about 20 yds we started seeing keyholing and accuracy falling off. Using road killed deer we tested for expansion. Anything over 2.5 gr Bullseye we got over expansion and bullet separation. IIRC we loaded to 3.2 gr Bullseye and the parts of the HB that remained, if any did, would totally roll back along the base. Usually the HB would come apart off the base.
I've used quite a few light loaded reversed HBWC on groundhogs, coons, and a few coyotes. Those worked very well. Not something I'd carry as a self defense load.
The problem with WC ammo for defensive use is the squared off end can slow a reload.
I bought a new box of ammo the other day for my 642. It is a box of 38 special wadcutters. Just glancing at the rounds, there is no bullet protrusion. I have not heard of these before and have not been to the range to shoot any of them yet either.
Are these just range quality rounds? Are they self defense type stuff? Looking for some guidance here.
Thanks,
Joe
I think the wadcutter makes an excellent range round. It shines best as for making a nice clean hole into a paper target. Also, they are very mild in recoil. As for self defense, the wadcutter appears to be a viable alternative as compared to the standard SD JHP. If you have time, you can do a google search and find lots of articles written on the subject matter. There are lots of forum members here that have extensive knowledge as well. Albeit, you might get different takes but it's always good to know both sides of the coin. As for online articles on the subject of wadcutters for self defense, I really like the website RevolverGuy.Com. They have a hosts of articles that might pique your interest.
Ammoseek.com almost always can steer you to a dealer selling .38 wadcutters-and yes, they're not cheap. However, every now & then, you may get lucky and stumble on a sale or good deal.
Looking back to early Oct., I bought twenty, 50 round boxes, of Geco .38 Spl. 146 gr flatnose/case-flush, lead wadcutters for $17/box + $15 S/H. from shawarms.com
They shoot great out of my S&W 4" M15.
Looking today, the cheapest I see on ammoseek.com is around $25/box for 148Gr. Sellier & Bellot (I like their ammo & have shot plenty of their .38 Spl. roundnose.)
BTW: Would anyone know if the .38 Spl. M15 has a different barrel and cylinder diameter bore than other S&W .38/.357 "K" frames (like the M19) or is the only M15 difference that the cylinder is fractionally shorter so .357's cannot fit the reduced length?
BTW: Would anyone know if the .38 Spl. M15 has a different barrel and cylinder diameter bore than other S&W .38/.357 "K" frames (like the M19) or is the only M15 difference that the cylinder is fractionally shorter so .357's cannot fit the reduced length?
The barrels have different profiles but the specifications for bore and rifling are the same.
The cylinders, I do not remember if they are different lengths but the chambers are different.
I just bought 2 cases of Winchester Super X silver box. It took a while to find them but if you look hard enough, you can find them. They came out to about $0.78 per round. Not cheap anymore for the factory stuff.
Of course off brand re-loads, Magtech, S&B, Fiocchi, etc are much cheaper
Last edited by offrdmania; 11-27-2023 at 09:51 AM.
148 gr .38 Special Wadcutters are extremely available, compared to 185 gr wadcutters for the .45 ACP. I had a few boxes of S&W aka Fiocci 9mm wadcutters that an Army Marksmanship Unit Sergeant used to fire a five shot, one hole group from my Browning Hi Power, target model with adjustable sights. (I was never that good.)
I haven't seen 9mm wadcutters since the 1970s.
Geoff
Who suddenly realizes just how long he has been around.
I don't shoot 38 target loads as much as I used to, but I still have over 2,000 38 wadcutter bullets in my loading room. I need to dig them out and take them to a gun show or flea market, but most of the young guys wouldn't know what they are!
Those will fit in a large flat rate box....if it fits it ships! Put them up for sale here while we're all thinking about wadcutters!
I just shot some today. Sometime ago I ordered some Acme Bullets .41 SWC and had them throw in a 100 piece sample pack of their grooveless 148gr button nose wadcutter. I recently loaded them and shot them today. But like all the bullets I buy there always seems to be one that doesn't want to cooperate.
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