.38 Super velocity testing: Underwood 124 JHP vs Sig V-Crown 125 JHP

Borderboss

Borderboss

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I mentioned in another thread that I was trying out my new Garmin Xero C1 Pro chronograph, and finally got to check velocities on ammo I like. One of the tests I wanted to run was my .38 Super carry load, the Underwood 124 gr JHP, and compare it to my previous .38 Super carry load, the now discontinued Sig V-Crown 125 gr JHP. This test was using my carry Super, a Para Ordnance frame with Caspian slide and a 5" Nowlin barrel.

Here's the five-shot results with the Underwood ammo:

  • 1,350.0
  • 1,372.3
  • 1,353.1
  • 1,347.8
  • 1,329.4
  • Five-shot average: 1,351 FPS, with energy of 503 FP

Here's the five-shot results with the Sig ammo:

  • 1,257.7
  • 1,239.6
  • 1,261.4
  • 1,276.4
  • 1,290.4
  • Five-shot average: 1,265 FPS, with energy of 444 FP

I found it interesting that both ammos came in at or above the advertised velocity. Underwood advertises 1,350 out of a 5" barrel, so they hit that one on the head. While now discontinued, Sig used to advertise 1,230 out of an unknown barrel length. So the rounds definitely perform as advertised.

I plan to build up a carry load for the Super using 1,000 pieces of the 125 V-Crown bullets I sourced about a year ago. Until I do that, I feel fine carrying the Underwood ammo.



 
38 Super is another underappreciated cartridge. It's not a 357 Magnum, for that you go to the 10mm Auto, but 38 Super provides more energy than any 9x19 mm load and the cartridge length is a better fit for the 1911 platform than the short 9x19 or 40 S&W.
 
stansdds said:
38 Super is another underappreciated cartridge. It's not a 357 Magnum, for that you go to the 10mm Auto, but 38 Super provides more energy than any 9x19 mm load and the cartridge length is a better fit for the 1911 platform than the short 9x19 or 40 S&W.
Click to expand...

As it happens, the YouTube channel Tools & Targets released a video yesterday comparing the Underwood .357 Sig and the Underwood 9mm +P+ loads, both of which use the same bullet. The gel test showed that the bullet actually performs "better" (IMHO) at the slower velocities because it was breaking up at .357 Sig velocities. The 9mm +P+ is slower than the .38 Super velocity, but I'm thinking the bullet performance will be closer to the 9mm load than the .357 Sig load.

I've always loved the .38 Super, and never really saw a reason for the .357 Sig. I'm sure others have the opposite thoughts.
 
I have to wonder if the 38 Super would not have been more popular if the semi-rim design was dropped in favor of a true rimless case when the 38 Super was introduced. The Super had a spotty reputation for accuracy in Colt 1911's with barrels that attempted to headspace on the semi-rim and the semi-rim can present issues in a pistol magazine.
 
My guns work fine with ammo made using Starline’s excellent .38 Super Comp cases and barrels that headspace on the case mouth. No modifications of any kind have been necessary. As to velocities, I always thought the original Super ballistics were basically a 130 at 1300. Maybe memory fails me? In any case, with all the powder technology we have these days, it would appear likely that it’s possible to improve on that, but it doesn’t seem so - at least not with tested and published data. :(

I agree a rimless round of true 1911-length would be nice, like the 9x23 or 9x25, but it’s something the industry has never done much with, possibly for lack of interest. Obviously most buyers are fixated on 9x19s that hold half a million rounds of ammunition. :o
 
If you have the funds and patience, besides chronographing your loads, I'd also test them in ballistic gel blocks to see how they perform. I know that is not necessarily a direct indication on how effective they would be on the street, but at least it does provide a comparison between other calibers and loads if shot into the same block.

Personally, I'd not carry hand-loads, but that's just me.
 
Is there actually an issue with reliability with the semi-rimmed case? I used to know a lot of people that shot them in competition and never heard of anyone having an issue or having to jump through hoops to resolve an issue.
 
Borderboss said:
I've always loved the .38 Super, and never really saw a reason for the .357 Sig. I'm sure others have the opposite thoughts.
Click to expand...

357 Sig fits in guns with a front-to-back grip dimension the same as 9mm and 40 S&W pistols. People with smaller hands find the 1911 grip too long front to back.
 
LVSteve said:
357 Sig fits in guns with a front-to-back grip dimension the same as 9mm and 40 S&W pistols. People with smaller hands find the 1911 grip too long front to back.
Click to expand...

That's interesting, considering that most of the "smaller hands" folks are women, and they tend to be recoil sensitive and opt for the 9mm.
 
It also comes down to manufacturing. If you are already making frames that take 9mm and 40 S&W, it makes sense to use that same design, keeping the cost down.

Borderboss said:
That's interesting, considering that most of the "smaller hands" folks are women, and they tend to be recoil sensitive and opt for the 9mm.
Click to expand...

Indeed, but a lot of guys I know have remarkably stubby fingers for the size of their hands and have issues with trigger reach on a 1911. This may meet with cries of "blasphemer!", but I have heard people say out loud that, for them at least, the 1911 is not the "ne plus ultra" when it comes to ergonomics.

Me, I have skinny hands with loooong fingers, so the depth of the 1911 grip doesn't bother me. My only issue is not having much meat at the base of my palm where the recoil hits, regardless of the gun. Then again the lack of meat also means that I find it all but impossible to get slide or hammer bite. Mind you, I take the unpopular view that if you are getting tangled up in the works, you're either holding it wrong or you need a different gun. Taking the highest grip possible and getting slashed for it just seem daft to me.
 
38 super....10mm...all the best of what semi autos can be!! NO not 357sig or 45gap!!
 
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The Starline .38 Super Comp is the best case to use. It is a rimless .38 Super. Of course, the barrel must have a chamber that allows case mouth head spacing. Starline told me that the brass is a little thicker and is safe to use for high pressure loads in non-supported chambers. I have found that that to be true. My top load uses a 124 FMJ bullet and 8.7 grains of AA #5. In a 5" barrel, it produces a MV in the mid-1400s. I stopped there as that is fast enough for anyone. For normal shooting, I usually drop back to 8.0 grains of AA#5. MV is in the lower 1300s. It functions reliably in a M1911.
 
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Borderboss said:
As it happens, the YouTube channel Tools & Targets released a video yesterday comparing the Underwood .357 Sig and the Underwood 9mm +P+ loads, both of which use the same bullet. The gel test showed that the bullet actually performs "better" (IMHO) at the slower velocities because it was breaking up at .357 Sig velocities. The 9mm +P+ is slower than the .38 Super velocity, but I'm thinking the bullet performance will be closer to the 9mm load than the .357 Sig load.

I've always loved the .38 Super, and never really saw a reason for the .357 Sig. I'm sure others have the opposite thoughts.
Click to expand...

Well, if bullets are "breaking up" at certain velocities my solution can be expressed in one word... LEHIGH.:eek:

CHEERS!
 
Borderboss said:
Is there actually an issue with reliability with the semi-rimmed case? I used to know a lot of people that shot them in competition and never heard of anyone having an issue or having to jump through hoops to resolve an issue.
Click to expand...

I'm curious about this too. I have shot a lot of 38 Super without ever running into any kind of functioning issue. Same for the older 38 Auto which I use in my Astra 400 and a couple other guns. Always functioned fine. Only issue I've ever heard of was indifferent accuracy in some guns that was cured by using a barrel that headspaced on the mouth instead of the semi-rim.
 
I know this is an old thread but I'm planning to do some more work on duplicating the Sig V-Crown 125 gr JHP specs (I got 1270 fps). Used the wrong bullet weight the first time around but I've got some Sig V-Crown 125 gr. JHPs to try now.

I will probably use a Winchester Small Pistol or CCI-500 primer next time. I was using some brass prepped for my Wilson Combat Accu-Comp DP. Don't really need a Small Rifle Primer for regular loads.

Gun: STI Edge .38 Super 5-inch
Bullet: Sierra Sig Sauer V-Crown 124 gr. JHP
Powder: Hodgdon CFE Pistol 5.95 grs.
Primer: Winchester Small Rifle
Case: Starline .38 Super Comp
OAL: 1.210
Avg. Vel.: 1202 fps
ES: 42
SD: 11
Recoil Spring: Dawson tool-less guide rod, 12 lb. recoil spring with Wilson Buffer Pad.
Comments: Lee U-Die and Lee Expander Die used.
 
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Nice to see this thread back...

....just switched over from UNIQUE to AAC-7 in my Super loads... Only loads chronoed so far has been some 100 Grain Berry's plated RN-HB that is my standard practice bullet for carry guns as I use the Underwood 90 gr. Xtreme Defenser as a carry load... Practice load is in the 1300s and the factory 1560 from a 4.25" and 1650 from a 5".

Didn't need it but have always admired the Kimber Eclipse series of guns...found a very clean one for cheap money and will be next week... Should take all the barrels that are set up for the Stainless Target II...

GREAT round...Bob
 
pbcaster45 said:
I know this is an old thread but I'm planning to do some more work on duplicating the Sig V-Crown 125 gr JHP specs (I got 1270 fps). Used the wrong bullet weight the first time around but I've got some Sig V-Crown 125 gr. JHPs to try now.

I will probably use a Winchester Small Pistol or CCI-500 primer next time. I was using some brass prepped for my Wilson Combat Accu-Comp DP. Don't really need a Small Rifle Primer for regular loads.

Gun: STI Edge .38 Super 5-inch
Bullet: Sierra Sig Sauer V-Crown 124 gr. JHP
Powder: Hodgdon CFE Pistol 5.95 grs.
Primer: Winchester Small Rifle
Case: Starline .38 Super Comp
OAL: 1.210
Avg. Vel.: 1202 fps
ES: 42
SD: 11
Recoil Spring: Dawson tool-less guide rod, 12 lb. recoil spring with Wilson Buffer Pad.
Comments: Lee U-Die and Lee Expander Die used.
Click to expand...

Let us know how it goes. I haven't had time to do any of the loading I mentioned in my original post, but it's still in the plan.
 
I'll have to try WSF too, worked pretty good with the Speer TMJ. This load is seated deeper than Speer's suggested 1.280 so pressures are higher and it's close to the max recommended charge. Work up!

Gun: STI Edge .38 Super 5-inch
Bullet: Speer 124 gr. TMJ RN (.356)
Powder: Winchester WSF 6.0 grs.
Primer: CCI-500
Case: Starline .38 Super Comp
OAL: 1.265
Recoil Spring: Dawson tool-less guide rod, 12 lb. Recoil Spring and Wilson Shok Buff.
Avg. Vel.: 1255 fps
ES: 27 fps
SD: 8 fps
 
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Borderboss said:
Is there actually an issue with reliability with the semi-rimmed case? I used to know a lot of people that shot them in competition and never heard of anyone having an issue or having to jump through hoops to resolve an issue.
Click to expand...

My Sig 1911 Match Elite chokes on regular 38 Super cases. It does fine with the Starline's Super Comp cases. I bought the gun new, so nobody has had a chance to fool with it. Can't blame anyone else . . . .

I think loosening up the extractor would allow it to use regular cases. The way it is now won't allow the semi rim to slide up the breech face. With Murphy hanging around my gun room, I figure loosening the extractor would then make Super Comp cases a problem.
 
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