What in the wide world of sports is going on here

[IAM Rand]

So I was just perusing the internet when I came across the 22 Creedmoor. Shut the front door. Did we really need anther 22. Then while looking at the Creedmoor I see the 22 ARC. Huh, what, I blinked and another 22. Then while researching both of them I see the 6mm Max. bebebebebebebebebbebebe (me running my finger up and down between my lips).

I understand wildcatting and coming up with new round but, I think that some people need to have their blood tested for lead. People be going crazy. I thought I went a bit 2 far with getting the 6 ARC in my stable until I took it deer hunting here in CO.

REALLY, where is all this coming from. If I was an ammo manufacturer I would be pulling out my hair. It seem that they are already having issues keeping up with the main cartridges out there in pistol and rifle, especially with all the wars, um er, conflicts going on around the world.

Is this just re-inventing the wheel without really making it that much better? What is going to be the longevity of all of these cartridges? I just don't know about all this. I need to stop blinking, every time I do there in another new cartridge. Talking about a cartridge war. It used to be about size but, the other way. Now it is about who can get the smallest/fastest.

[mikerjf]

After navigating the toothpaste section at the grocery with 27 different kinds of Crest, I stand convinced that someone in marketing is not doing their job because we don’t have a wide variety of choice in toilet paper size and color.

[Eric300]

Must have made sense to someone, I reckon.....

[Nevada Ed]

Same here.

I was scratching my head when I came home with two cases that I picked
up from the indoor range.
I never saw them before and had to find out what they were.

This site finally told me that these new little gems were known as the
22 TMC and the
4.6 x 30.

More "Man toys".

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Seems ridiculous to me 2 but if they do not make money on it they will stop. If they do make money on it they were smarter than you òr I.

[Fishinfool]

I have a buddy who jumped on the Winchester super short magnum bandwagon when those cartridges were first introduced. He has a Winchester model 70 in each caliber. They sit in his safe while he hunts with a .308.

He says they are valuable collectors items.

I think they are rifles in calibers that are hard to find, and nobody wants. He has tried selling a couple of them with no bites. Just waiting for the right buyers, I guess.

Larry

[hkcavalier]

I think everyone in the rifle and ammo biz wants to come up with the 'next' 6.5 Creedmoor, that chambering that's not incredibly better than anything else but that everyone just has to have. .40S&W is probably the last example in the pistol world.

I don't think it's going away. Caseless ammo might eventually catch on in military applications, but it's not so great for civilian ones (and has been tried more than once). And I don't think the gubmit will let us mere peons get our mitts on railguns and directed energy weapons --- 'for everyone's safety' of course.

[STORMINORMAN]

The 40 S&W will be around for a long, LONG time, IMHO... Still one of my favorites and almost always available: a pleasure to reload.

Now, as far as 30 Super Carry is concerned...?

Cheers!

[teletech]

Originally Posted by hkcavalier

. And I don't think the gubmit will let us mere peons get our mitts on railguns and directed energy weapons --- 'for everyone's safety' of course.

We're getting pretty close to viable magnetic guns:
$3,375 Electromagnetic Gun Declared "A Serious Weapon" During Expert Range Report (Updated)
In the intervening year, even better designs have surfaced, though more on the DIY side than a completed item.
The government will eventually start wanting to regulate them, but they are made out of such common components it's going to be even harder than trying to pay catch-up on the 80% thing.

[dsf]

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

Same here.

I was scratching my head when I came home with two cases that I picked
up from the indoor range.
I never saw them before and had to find out what they were.

This site finally told me that these new little gems were known as the
22 TMC and the
4.6 x 30.

More "Man toys".

22 TCM - probably no need for it, but I have the rifle. Cost maybe $299.00 and is a great little shooter. Takes ParaOrd mags, I think 18 rounds. 2,900 fps and about $19.00 per 50 rounds.

I stopped making fun of women and their many shoes a long time ago.

[robvious]

it is the "Fashionable" side of our hobby... the Prada, Versace, catwalk crud .. exclusive and expensive with little to no real world advantage.. I guess I am just a fudd at heart...

[mauser9]

Will stick with the old standbys myself. My 06,270, and 22 magnum fits my range without blowing a lot of cash on these calibers I have no use for.

[DWalt]

Distinctions without a difference. At most a half-dozen different cartridges each for handguns and rifles should fill all needs, real or imagined. And the same is true for about every other product you can name from alarm clocks to oil filters. Problem is people are born with a craving for variety.

[LostintheOzone]

OP said,

REALLY, where is all this coming from. If I was an ammo manufacturer I would be pulling out my hair. It seem that they are already having issues keeping up with the main cartridges out there in pistol and rifle, especially with all the wars, um er, conflicts going on around the world.

The ammo manufacturers are developing the new cartridges. Hornady or Federal more than likely. If Ruger decides to market a new rifle (cartridge) there has to be ammo on the shelf or nobody will buy it. The ammo comes first with at least one firearms company on board. Then they wait around to see if anyone else wants to play. If not, it just dies a slow death.

[glenwolde]

They keep trying, and I'm glad they do. I think it advances the knowledge base we all benefit from.

But it's hard to supplant already popular cartridges. There's such a huge installed base.

If your goal is to improve performance, then many are a success. Take the aforementioned WSM's. They got long-action magnum performance out of a short-action. Performance-wise that's a win. Unfortunately that's not the goal. The goal is to sell more rifles and ammo.

I think they should concentrate their efforts and their budgets on building better guns for the cartridges we have. That would sell.

[toad67]

Look at what the 22 Creedmoor is all about, especially with heavier bullets. It will sure make you say, huh......

[Buzzzer]

One word, money.

While I don't have any ill will towards anyone who wants to reinvent the wheel I do have issues in regards to this sort of thing. History has shown us if you want the consumer to stop using something you stop making it, or make it in so limited of quantities it makes it difficult, if not impossible, for the average Joe to use. Make older ammo in more limited quantities and much more expensive as to make the customer choose a different caliber and, hence, a different firearm.

One word, money...

[mtgianni]

Originally Posted by LostintheOzone

OP said,

REALLY, where is all this coming from. If I was an ammo manufacturer I would be pulling out my hair. It seem that they are already having issues keeping up with the main cartridges out there in pistol and rifle, especially with all the wars, um er, conflicts going on around the world.

The ammo manufacturers are developing the new cartridges. Hornady or Federal more than likely. If Ruger decides to market a new rifle (cartridge) there has to be ammo on the shelf or nobody will buy it. The ammo comes first with at least one firearms company on board. Then they wait around to see if anyone else wants to play. If not, it just dies a slow death.

Hornaday discontinued production on 444 Marlin and 480 Ruger for the foreseeable future. Everything comes at a cost.

[IAM Rand]

They aren't even really doing much. They took the Legend and necked it to make the 6mm Max, they necked the 6Arc to make the 22Arc, and they necked down the 6.5 Creedmoor to make a 22 Creedmoor. This feels much like Hollywood these days. All they do is take old movies and redo them. They may make a couple of changes but overall, it is the same ole thing with pearls on it.

It might be nice to have someone start from scratch and come up with a whole new cartridge that is not based upon something else.

[DWalt]

Well, Remington did come out with that electric rifle and cartridge, I forget the name. That was a brand new concept not based on anything else and was a huge marketing success among those who didn't mind paying $5/cartridge. Then there was the Dardick Tround, the Gyrojet, and the Daisy VL.

[STORMINORMAN]

Originally Posted by IAM Rand

They aren't even really doing much. They took the Legend and necked it to make the 6mm Max, the necked the 6Arc to make the 22Arc, and they necked down the 6.5 Creedmoor to make a 22 Creedmoor. This feels much like Hollywood these days. All they do is take old movies and redo them. They may make a couple of changes but overall, it is the same ole thing with pearls on it.

It might be nice to have someone start from scratch and come up with a whole new cartridge that is not based upon something else.

I would opine that the 6.8 x 51/277 Fury is probably the closest thing to just that ("...a whole new cartridge that is not based upon something else."), BUT...

Outside of the obvious military application who really NEEDS that level of performance (@ 80K psi!)?

Cheers!

P.S. I think my ol' 270 WIN (in a Ruger Ultralight) or a 308 (in a PA-10) ought to be enough to handle anything I would be likely to encounter... If I want to get more historic there's the 30-30 and if I REALLY want to get Neanderthal on it there's the Rolling Block in 7mm Mauser!

[DWalt]

Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN

P.S. I think my ol' 270 WIN (in a Ruger Ultralight) or a 308 (in a PA-10) ought to be enough to handle anything I would be likely to encounter... If I want to get more historic there's the 30-30 and if I REALLY want to get Neanderthal on it there's the Rolling Block in 7mm Mauser!

The .270 is a good example of versatility. With the proper bullet, it remains fully adequate for hunting everything from varmints up to anything found in the lower 48. Very few need anything else.

[M29since14]

I have to admit, I like new stuff, but there is such a thing as “too much of a good thing.” My thoughts and opinions won’t change the minds of the manufacturers who have to meet a payroll every week and plan for their futures, but recent developments have changed how I intend to operate from now on. If there is any doubt about availability of necessary components (for rifles, usually cartridge brass), I intend to factor in the cost of enough supplies to wear out the barrel, or come close to it.

Three hundred pieces of brass, or a similar amount of ammunition that can be reloaded, for the bigger powder burners might be a good place to start. If I can’t get enthusiastic about spending the money for that, it’s a non-starter, for me.

It’s foolish to think we haven’t learned important things about rifles and cartridges in the last 50-100 years, but how significant what we’ve learned actually is, in terms of spending one’s hard-earned money, will be a matter of judgment for the individual. I’m perfectly happy with stuff designed in my youth, fifty years ago - when I couldn’t afford to buy it.

[IAM Rand]

Originally Posted by DWalt

The .270 is a good example of versatility. With the proper bullet, it remains fully adequate for hunting everything from varmints up to anything found in the lower 48. Very few need anything else.

My father was always a big fan of the 270 WCF. I grew up on a 270. When I got older I kinda lost my mind and got a 7mm mag. Mainly because it was a S&W1500. Then I felt the need to go even larger, 300 WM. Then I had to go EVEN smaller, 6 ARC. Last but, not least. back to the 270 with a Savage 110 Hunter.

I came full circle. At this point I think my stable if full. The one thing I was not particularly happy with was a bunch of videos of people using the 22 Creedmoor for deer. I have to say that I was impress with the outcomes but, still. In CO you have to have a minimum of 6mm/.243 and 75gr for deer and Pronghorn. 85+ for Elk. I did take a nice buck with my ARC but, not sure I would want to use it on an elk

[DWalt]

I think many hunters today have been swept up with the array of newer calibers available and have forgotten (or never knew) about the versatility of the .270 offered by the use of appropriate bullets and loadings. But you do have to load your own to tailor your ammunition for any special needs.

[walnutred]

Back in the last century I had a 7mm Ackley improved with a 29" barrel built on an Arisaka action. The rifle was ugly but I'm still convinced it was one of the most practical calibers ever devised. It was just more rifle than I needed for Ohio. Last I heard it was still seeing regular use in Colorado.

[Just another 22 shooter]

I've been a fan of the 6mm Creedmoor since the first time i read about. Back in my days of varmint rifles and killing vermin out west, I was always looking and reading about wildcat cartridges and wishing I could afford to have guns built to shoot them. One cartridge I was enamored with was the 6mm/250 Ackley Improved. The 6 Creedmoor is pretty much the same case with not quite as much shoulder angle. I bought a Savage 110 Tactical in 6 Creedmoor a couple years ago. It shot so well, I bought another. Both guns shoot 70 to 110 grain bullets great. I have 70 Speer hollow point load for varmints and a 110 grain Hornady A Tip load for bang steel out to a thousand yards. I haven't found a bullet that these two guns won't shoot well with very little load development.
And NOW we have the 6 and 22 ARC....another rabbit hole to jump into.

[hkcavalier]

Originally Posted by teletech

We're getting pretty close to viable magnetic guns:
$3,375 Electromagnetic Gun Declared "A Serious Weapon" During Expert Range Report (Updated)
In the intervening year, even better designs have surfaced, though more on the DIY side than a completed item.
The government will eventually start wanting to regulate them, but they are made out of such common components it's going to be even harder than trying to pay catch-up on the 80% thing.

As a sci-fi author who has researched and written about railguns, it's true they could end up being very simple to make, especially as battery and capacitor technology gets better. But the U.S. government will deem them illegal. It's also very easy to make ANFO bombs, or thermite, or different kinds of poison gas...it's just not legal to do so.

[moonsterman]

Its all BS!! 22LR 22mag...38special/45acp..2250....3006....308....12ga can get 99% of what needs 2b done DONE! ...I honestly dont own most of these calibers but that does mean a 17hmr or 10mm or a 6.5 creedmore is better...its just the spice of life....enjoy

[StrawHat]

Originally Posted by IAM Rand

They aren't even really doing much. They took the Legend and necked it to make the 6mm Max, they necked the 6Arc to make the 22Arc, and they necked down the 6.5 Creedmoor to make a 22 Creedmoor. This feels much like Hollywood these days. All they do is take old movies and redo them. They may make a couple of changes but overall, it is the same ole thing with pearls on it.

It might be nice to have someone start from scratch and come up with a whole new cartridge that is not based upon something else.

They took the .30-06 and necked it down to 25, .27 and blew it out to 35.

They took the .250-3000 Savage and necked it down to .22, and enlarged it to .308.

This has been going on for a few decades. Sometimes they find something that works and it sticks around. Sometimes it falls by the wayside.

And by “they”, I mean wildcatters.

Kevin

[Troystat]

Speaking of the 6.5 creedmore is it really much different than a 6.5x55 Swedish?

[teletech]

Originally Posted by Troystat

Speaking of the 6.5 creedmore is it really much different than a 6.5x55 Swedish?

Ballistically, not a ton, but it's 1/4" shorter OAL which means it fits in magazines made for .308 and that opens up a slew of platforms where 6.5CM fits and Swede won't.

[Durango Slim]

I prefer to associate with the men that dedicate their time to re-inventing the wheel, rather than the men that dedicate their time to stopping it.

[Dave Lively]

Originally Posted by DWalt

Distinctions without a difference. At most a half-dozen different cartridges each for handguns and rifles should fill all needs, real or imagined. And the same is true for about every other product you can name from alarm clocks to oil filters. Problem is people are born with a craving for variety.

Need and want are two different things. If someone wants a new cartridge for some small advantage nothing wrong with that. I was hoping the 30 SC would catch on for the increased capacity but it didn't happen.

But I totally get how frustrating it can be when things get needlessly complicated when all you want is something simple that works.

At least guns themselves can still be operated without a touch screen. I probably shouldn't say that out loud, someone might think having to enter a password, find the fire menu, press the fire button and then the "Are you sure?" confirmation button would make a great "safety" feature.

[slickracer]

All of these new calibers are a hoax. All we really need is about 5 or 6 rifle calibers total.

[Skeet 028]

Yep not a lot new under the sun...when I got my first 22 Varminter(later called 22-250) I had lots of 30-06 cases...made Varminter brass from it...early 60s. I just found some of that old brass. Necked it up to 250-3000 so I could shoot the Savage 99 I got this year. Annealed it first but didn't lose a case

[venomballistics]

Much of this revolves around achieving improved function in the AR platforms. So It's not quite as ridiculous as it seems

[StrawHat]

Originally Posted by slickracer

All of these new calibers are a hoax. All we really need is about 5 or 6 rifle calibers total.

Yep. All we need is the 22 Hornet, 38 S&W Special, 405 WCF, 45 ACP, and the 50-70. They cover most everything on this and several other continents.

Kevin

[dave1918a2]

Sad thing about the .270 is it took so many years to finally produce a 140 grain bullet. If the new boutique cartridges make money they will stay. If not, they will go. Try to find any of the Winchester short magnums in a store. Not happening. But one can still find 243, 270, 30-06, 308, 300 Win mag, and 22-250. Hunting in the lower 48 not much else is needed. I handload, so My go to is a 264 Win Mag pre 64 Westerner.

[375hh1973]

Originally Posted by slickracer

All of these new calibers are a hoax. All we really need is about 5 or 6 rifle calibers total.

What the hell would be fun about that???

Since when has NEED ever been a factor, when it comes to guns and bullets?

[mtgianni]

GE bought a company my former employer dealt with a lot. Our new rep said GE wanted a new product out every five years in a limited market of gas utilities. We told our rep we would never consider buying a product with a less than 10 year track record as it would stay in the field for 20-25 years in most cases. I retired before they answered back.
Point being if you are not putting out new products in some areas ownership believes you are not doing your job.
Contrast that with Mueller who has put the same line stopping equipment out since the later part of the 19th century, with updates being modern materials. They are the most respected company in the industry.

[venomballistics]

Originally Posted by dave1918a2

Sad thing about the .270 is it took so many years to finally produce a 140 grain bullet. If the new boutique cartridges make money they will stay. If not, they will go. Try to find any of the Winchester short magnums in a store. Not happening. But one can still find 243, 270, 30-06, 308, 300 Win mag, and 22-250. Hunting in the lower 48 not much else is needed. I handload, so My go to is a 264 Win Mag pre 64 Westerner.

The physics of it is unchanged... Legal requirements have prompted the creation of a few new drillings.
350 legend, for example, was created to address length restrictions and straight wall requirements, while being a functional cartridge in the AR 15.
Even outside it's target regions, it ticks a few interesting boxes, making it well worth some consideration.

[rockquarry]

There is no shortage of newschoolers, gadgeteers, upgraders, and YouTube disciples comprising the ranks, so new cartridges and new everything else will continue to be introduced. There's always a ready market even if the "new" is really no better or not as good as the "old".

[TIMETRIPPER]

I guess I need to get rid of my Sako in 222 Remington... it's so passe.

John

[mrchick]

Originally Posted by TIMETRIPPER

I guess I need to get rid of my Sako in 222 Remington... it's so passe.

John

I used to shoot my grandfather’s .222 Sako Vixen. It was a tack-driver. I had to settle for a Remington 700 in .222. It’s a great cartridge.

[Gamecock]

22 Creedmoor and 22 ARC have merit.

I've just got a dozen other unfinished gun projects to get sorted before I take on more.

[A10]

I'm still waiting for the 4.5mm Crochet.....

[CH4]

Originally Posted by Eric300

Must have made sense to someone, I reckon.....

More beans, Mr. Taggart?

Thanks, I'll stick with the 223 and 22-250. Being a 6.5mm nut, I did fall for the 6.5 CM. Great round for medium length actions that duplicates the ballistics of the venerable swede. Besides the longer neck, it's basically a 260 Rem.

[DWalt]

Originally Posted by mrchick

I used to shoot my grandfather’s .222 Sako Vixen. It was a tack-driver. I had to settle for a Remington 700 in .222. It’s a great cartridge.

It's been awhile since I had a .222 rifle, and even then ammo and cases for it were becoming scarce as the .223 had taken over. I have formed .222 cases from .223 brass, still have the .222 dies.

Personally, I can't come up with a good reason why anyone would prefer using the ,222 over the .223 given the choice. At one time the .222 was a preferred bench rest shooting caliber, doubt it still is.

[rockquarry]

Originally Posted by DWalt

It's been awhile since I had a .222 rifle, and even then ammo and cases for it were becoming scarce as the .223 had taken over. I have formed .222 cases from .223 brass, still have the .222 dies.

Personally, I can't come up with a good reason why anyone would prefer using the ,222 over the .223 given the choice. At one time the .222 was a preferred bench rest shooting caliber, doubt it still is.

You certainly make a valid point.

The preference for the .222 might be because of the trim, "sized just right for the cartridge" Sako actions. Also, the older Sakos are much nicer guns than most of those available today for the .223 cartridge and there are still a lot of them around, but you can also get the Sakos in the .223 chambering. Many of the .222 Sakos were purchased long before there was a .223.

I've never had a problem finding .222 brass, but I haven't looked for any recently.