If 22LR is so popular, Why don't they make a 22LR CENTERFIRE Cartridge ? THE SAME SIZE, NOT bottle-necked, and a nice S&W Revolver, and Rifle to go with it.. Would that be a lot more dependable for Competition, Small game hunting, If you like, Self Defense ? They sure make a lot of other's in centerfire.. and a BIG BONIS Should that be a lighter trigger pull ? Maybe 6#, Instead of 11#, and If It's your cup of tea, RELOADABLE.. CCI Stinger must have a strong case at 1640 FPS, Will need a small centerfire primer. Will cost more to make, but have seen some rimfire at $.20-.30 cents a round.. Just something I'm throwing out there..

Something like a M-53 22 Jet Magnum?

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6/23/2022

Let’s bring back the Velo Dog!
Reported to be a dandy Centerfire 22.
It didn’t work out that well for Charles Askins, but maybe he improperly employed it!

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Nothing wrong with the technical side of your idea but in reality, it will never work simply due to the untold gazillions of rimfire .22’s that already exist.

Much like Glock’s adventure with the .45 GAP cartridge. The idea was sound and it made sense but trying to replace something that’s been established and loved for 100 years and is still outrageously popular is nearly impossible.

It would be on the order of designing a brand new railroad train… engines and cars, all of which might be better than what’s used now but requires a set of train tracks that is 2-1/2 feet wider than what’s used now and since the 1800’s. You might have invented the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it has a snowball’s chance in hell of ever coming to life.

I'd say the .25 ACP is pretty darn close to what you suggest, oldrookey617. The primer pretty well fills up the .25 ACP case head. I think it would be tighter yet in a 22 caliber. And if you wanted a heel bullet like 22 LR, the head would be even smaller.

^^^This^^^
Seems to me that I read somewhere that when JMB designed the 25ACP cartridge and the Colt Vest Pocket Pistol that fired it in around 1905, he chose that caliber because it was the smallest cartridge design he could come up with that would accept a standard small pistol primer.
So basically, standard 22 caliber brass is too small in diameter to accept a small pistol primer - which is why straight-walled 22 caliber ammo is rimfire only.
Now if you want to step up to larger diameter bottle-necked cases, then the sky is the limit.
22 Remington Jet, 22 Hornet, .223, 5.56mm NATO and several other cartridges are all 22 caliber projectiles with center-fire brass - but the brass is all much larger in diameter than a 22LR.
Hope that helps.

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Please note, the 22 Cooper Centerfire Magnum,

Reloading Data .22 CCM / .22 Cooper Centerfire Magnum (Accurate Loading Guide #2) Metallic

While it is the length of the 22 Extra Long, there is no reason it could not be shortened.

Kevin

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I believe the Russians have a compact semi auto pistol often issued to female officers that uses a bottle necked .22 caliber round with a 40 gr FMJ bullet and center fire primer with ballistics similar to the .22 LR.

Not sure about this one.

I do wonder why no one has developed a slightly bottlenecked, hard plastic cased shotgun cartridge, especially for semi/full auto and military applications.

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I do think the 22 K Hornet or even a case like that shortened would even work in revolvers. Maybe even a Jet case straightened. My Jet shot fine but too much taper so set back limited velocity and useability. I have seen a couple revolvers chambered to 22 K Hornet but never got to shoot one. Fun in a Contender though

It's being developed right now.
It'll be the 22SuperCarry

Not really. The 22 LR is not easily reloadable. I would like the idea of a reloadable 22 Long Rifle. Casting bullets is easily learned. A pound of powder would probably last for years of shooting!

Kevin

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Let us not forget the currently available and somewhat popular .22 TCM, an Armscor product. Works well in a semi-auto pistol and could be adapted to a revolver with moon clips I would guess.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

There was once a 5mm RF Remington, and also a centerfire version of the same caliber. But it was a commercial failure. In short, nearly no one saw a need to buy an expensive cartridge in an oddball caliber (or the rifle that used it), having little if any advantage over the .22 WMR. So it died a well-deserved death.

AGREED^^^^^^ It would be like pushing electric vehicles when all the infrastructure is designed for internal combustion engines. Oh wait?!?!?

Well, I meant that it would be a commercial failure because it would not be enough of an improvement over what’s already established and available. I don’t mean that there is a lot of .22LR ammo, I am saying that there are so many .22LR firearms that already exist.

The .45 GAP comparison tells the story. The .45 GAP was a fine idea EXCEPT that it was impossible to sell to the world that was already in love with .45 ACP.

Yes, the .45 GAP was a classic example of grossly misreading the market. But it is far from alone. Remember the Remington electrical rifle and cartridge? The Gyrojet? The Tround? The Daisy VL? Displacing the .22 RF is an impossibility because of the enormous installed base of .22 firearms worldwide. And there is nothing wrong with the .22s rimfire ignition that it needs changing to centerfire. That is why it has survived and thrived for 170 years. It is a 100% certainty that a CF version of the .22 RF that sold for probably triple the price of the RF would sell like pork in Mecca.

Actually the 5mm RF was selling pretty well. It really eclipsed the 22 mag by far. but....always a but ya know...they had trouble with that 5mm blowing holes in the cases. Rather than fix the problem...the brass cases...they dumped the whole project...Remington already had a big project on their plate...the 700 Trigger. I was also told that much of the 5mm ammo w loaded by Remington subsidiary in Mexico . You can still sometimes find new made ammo for the 5mm and it's still better than the 22 WRFM or the 17 HMR. Still got a box or two of that Mexican ammo

Years ago there were 22 long rifle ammo loaded centerfire. These are quite uncommon to encounter and are collectors cartridges. In 50 plus years of cartridge collecting, I have yet to add one to my collection.

Okay, sounds like they just need a stronger case, and a smaller primer, The main thing is a more dependable 22LR cartridge.. Centerfire will be a lot better than a Rimfire, A lot less duds.. It may fill a niche for some people..

The more expensive competition grade 22 long rifle ammo is normally very reliable however, during the big ammo shortage time all the 22 rimfire manufacturers got a little sloppy. CCI has always been very reliable for me and it’s not that expensive but I heard they even got a little sloppy during the big ammo shortage times. There was so many demanding customers that were screaming at them to make more and they were hiring new employees and working overtime and it still took them five years to catch up.

Aguila still lists the 5mm although it's probably not stocked by every Cabelas.

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Why not a .25 ACP Magnum? Stretch the case, give it better performance.

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Otherwise known as the 5.7. Joe

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I remember lusting after a Remington 5 mm rifle on the rack at the hardware store when I was a teenager. My Dad talked me out of it, suggested I just stick with my.22LR. It was more than I could afford anyway, if I recall.

It was called the .22 WCF and was introduced in 1885 for the 1885 Winchester Low Wall. It's longer than a Lr , uses a 45 grain flat nosed bullet at 1500 fps. The .22 WRF took it's place. The .22 WCF is the parent cartridge of the .22 Hornet and was discontinued in 1936. I have a ziplock bag full of them stashed away somewhere.

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Calling bull on that unless you show proof.

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And I was told by someone at Remington that is where the majority of the 5mm was made. I was also told that they supposedly solved the blown case problem by making the case harder(and probably) reducing pressure and velocity. I had one for a while and never blew a case rim

Yes, Charlie Askins' converting a Colt Woodsman to 5.5 Velo Dog so he could fire it in the Centerfire match...didn't go over too well. Sort of a shooter's version of the Flying V formation in football in the 1890s-how long did that last ?

I give you the 22 Ladybug:

.22 ladybug - Saubier.com

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Sorry Eddie, being computer challenged I have problems posting links. If you want to see example, go to Internation Ammunition Assoc. website and do a search. IIRC these were produced @1920's but on the exact date I cannot attest to.

I imagine the title rested upon a changing cast of cartridges through the years.
22 Hornet likely held the distinction
Right now, it's clearly 5.56
There's likely been a few in between.
Thing is, 22 LR as we know it is difficult to replicate as a centerfire. The closest thing to it is the 25 ACP.
It's best to embrace the concept as a bottle neck sports car

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Is it possible to get a bottle-necked cartridge such as a 22TCM to work in a revolver? Are there revolvers out there whose cylinder charge holes are bottle-neck shaped to align the bullet with the barrel?

If you want a small .22 centerfire cartridge in a revolver there is the .22 Long Snapper and .22 Short Snapper - both shortened versions of the Hornet and will fit in a J-frame .22 cylinder. Likewise there is the Kay-chuck for the K-frames. Either is a lot of fussing around for the little gained, in realistic terms. The .22 Magnum does quite well in iron-sighted revolvers and you’d really need a scope to take advantage of the extra range of the other rounds. And .22 WRFM ammo is pretty darned reliable, in my experience. But, if you have to have a handloadable .22 that isn’t a nuisance like the Jet…

Doing that would double the price per round, at least.
Better off getting a Hornet and down-loading it.
A better solution would be to make rifles with double firing pins located 180 degrees apart on the bolt face like what was done on the early lever-action Winchesters chambered for the .44 rim-fires.
It doubled the chances of the firing pin hitting and igniting some priming compound if it was not evenly distributed around the circumference of the cartridge rim.
Consistent and uniform priming was sometimes a problem in the manufacturing processes in the early days of metallic cartridge production.

An elongated .25 ACP round would be an interesting chambering for a mini pistol. But it would necessarily be a little larger than a run of the mill .25 ACP pistol.

I have seen many mentions about ftfs with .22 RF cartridges, but I have yet to experience more than a few instances of that happening. I remember those were from Remington bulk pack boxes. I usually use CCI and Federal. Having a dual firing pin might be worthwhile but I suspect there could be some problems with that.

I've often thought the same.
Get the buggy humming at 40kpsi with a OAL of about 1.00 -1.2".
It would be an easy shooting cartridge and ample for many range and field applications.

Seems like a slam dunk...
But good luck dethroning the 9mm for it's bang to buck ratio.
That's what drives the bottom line more than any other figure

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it just needs more voltage

INTERESTING! Never heard of this one before.
One bit of info that wasn't listed in the reloading specs you linked is the primer. Does this take the standard SPP?
Any sources for brass that you know of?
Looks like someone proved JMB wrong. Wonder why it never caught on?

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IIRC tapered bottleneck rounds such as 22 Jet in the Model 53 have serious problems with cartridge setback.

Rimfire 22 LR ammo is probably the most popular in the world and basically that is because it is inexpensive compared to center fire cartridges. Even now RF ammo can be purchased for around a 6-7 cents each, thrown away after use and forgotten about. The primers on a CF bullet alone are more than that! Make RF ammo super expensive and you take away its major advantage.

While RF is not as reliable as CF is, they have now made it at least somewhat reliable or at least reliable to be used in all aspects of shooting sports. While some even use RF ammo in SD guns, (I would not) but if that is what they want, a revolver would make much more sense than a semi auto because if a round fails to fire, all that needs to be done is the trigger is pulled again. A SA would need to be cleared and cycled which would take too much time IMHO.

RF ammo is about perfect for those who need to dispatch pests and vermin, target shoot on paper, or use just for general plinking fun. Expensive primers that would require a different and more sturdy case design doesn't really make sense for RF ammo. As for CF "22's", the cartridge case has a larger diameter, has to be thicker and stronger. Not in the cards for what most 22's are actually used for and counter intuitive for what it is.

See post 7.

Yes, it took the standard small pistol primer. I am not aware of any current suppliers of brass or rifles. Cooper Arms is still in business, the might know.

Kevin

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Are you asking about a centerfire cartridge that is dimensionally the same as the 22 Long Rifle? Or merely a 22 caliber cartridge loaded to LR ballistics?

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

It would do better than that. Misfires are probably the results of small gaps in the primer compound. The odds of both firing pins hitting a gap would be the percentage of the rim without priming compound squared.

If you are getting one misfire for every 10 rounds fired it would go down to one round for every 100 rounds fired with a double firing pin. One misfire out of 20 would go down to one out of 400, etc.

Downsides would be some extra cost and to make sure both firing pins hit with enough force the already heavy DA trigger pull of a 22 revolver would have to be even heavier.

The .22 Jet has tapered charge holes.

I have no experience with them, but I recall reading the .22 Kay-Chuk (and the .22 Improved Jet) had a more traditional case profile, not as gradually tapered as the Jet, and had less setback with firing.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

While its never as reliable as centerfire ammo the high end 22 LR ammo is reliable enough for anything I want to do with a 22. But almost all my 22 shooting is with CCI ammo of some sort and occasionally Federal automatch. Not as good as the high end stuff but more than reliable enough for what I use a 22 for. And still a lot less expensive than any centerfire cartridge. While it does have very low recoil and noise the main reason 22 LR is so popular is price.

In addition to requiring new guns and expensive niche ammo hunting small game with a new cartridge would require changes in hunting regulations in all the states I have lived in.

If the goal is a very low recoil revolver cartridge there is already the S&W 32 long which can be shot from any 32 H&R Magnum or 327 Federal revolver.

Because thst round would be called something else other than 22lr, and it still would NOT be anywhere near as popular as 22lr. That round would require manufacturers to make new firearms chambered in that round to shoot it. That round would also cost more than 22lr especially since primers are involved. We already have more than enough options for dependable self-defense rounds, and there are more dependable 22lr rounds designed for self-defense and hunting already.

I think if you want the economy of reloadability with modest but useful ballistics in rifle or revolver, the 32 S&W fills the bill to a T

Well said, I concur.

Last I saw pistol primers were about 8 cents/ round and 22 LR about 7 cents.

What about the recessed cylinder holes, like on my M-617 revolver, with the lip that's on the 22LR, will that hold the cartridge in place ? you will not need the bottle-neck cylinder holes..