|
|
03-01-2024, 05:41 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 848
Likes: 3,600
Liked 5,795 Times in 818 Posts
|
|
Help with an unknown wooden cartridge please
My father had 20-30 of these. Any ideas? The numbers on the head appear to be 1904. I can't make out the symbols other than the two stars.
Here's two different views of the headstamp-different lighting, same cartridge. Don't look at my fingers/skin...I work for a living. Thanks for any help.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-01-2024, 05:59 PM
|
|
Moderator
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 27,001
Likes: 1,039
Liked 19,172 Times in 9,370 Posts
|
|
What is the approximate “bullet” diameter? I think I see F A (Frankford Arsenal) so if a U.S. cartridge I would guess .30 Army, aka .30-40 Krag.
__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-01-2024, 06:14 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Western ,Ma.
Posts: 6,237
Likes: 12,724
Liked 13,474 Times in 3,399 Posts
|
|
I tend to agree Frankford Arsenal
Are there BB's in them ?
I've had them and paper ones before.
IIRC some were for parades and such.
__________________
Paul
S&WCA #2726
|
03-01-2024, 06:38 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,619
Likes: 4
Liked 8,973 Times in 4,160 Posts
|
|
Definitely not .30-40 or .30-06; the shape isn't even close. Maybe 8x50Rmm Lebel?
|
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
|
|
03-01-2024, 06:38 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 848
Likes: 3,600
Liked 5,795 Times in 818 Posts
|
|
Here's a picture of the cartridge next to a vintage .30-40 Krag.
I measured the case and here the measurements.
Overall case length- 2.25"
Overall cartridge length 3.245"
Base Diameter- .621
Neck diameter- .350
Bullet diameter- .335 (approximately-it's wood and I didn't squeeze)
Here's a better picture of the head stamp.
Last edited by 444 Magnum; 03-01-2024 at 06:42 PM.
|
03-01-2024, 07:03 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sandy Utah
Posts: 8,774
Likes: 1,608
Liked 8,967 Times in 3,574 Posts
|
|
It appears to possibly be a wood bullet 8mm Lebel cartridge, although OPs dimensions are off a bit. Possibly loaded at Frankford Arsenal, Philadelphia. I have no idea if any ammunition for the French was loaded by Frankford Arsenal prior to WWI, but the only FA headstamp code I find in international headstamp listings is Frankford Arsenal. Other than this I have no idea except is is probably European. Possibly the Ammunition Collectors Assn. can shed more light on this.
It definitely is not any American cartridge except manufacturer.
__________________
Gunsmithing since 1961
Last edited by Alk8944; 03-01-2024 at 07:13 PM.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-01-2024, 07:18 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2023
Location: Northeast MS
Posts: 647
Likes: 2,415
Liked 1,890 Times in 445 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockquarry
Definitely not .30-40 or .30-06; the shape isn't even close. Maybe 8x50Rmm Lebel?
|
They have to be 8mm Lebel.
|
03-01-2024, 07:25 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,739
Likes: 247
Liked 29,317 Times in 14,166 Posts
|
|
Looks very much like an 8mm Kropatschek blank cartridge (Portuguese). Headstamp seems correct. Many of those blank cartridges came onto the market about 40 years ago. Many of the rifles came onto the market in the early 1970s. The rifles and carbines are highly desirable milsurp collectors items today. The bullet diameter of the service ball round was 0.321".
All of the rifles were made by Steyr in Austria. The design was essentially the same as the Mauser 71/84 with a tubular underbarrel magazine.
See: https://cartridgecollector.net/cartr...r-kropatschek/
Last edited by DWalt; 03-01-2024 at 07:42 PM.
|
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
|
|
03-01-2024, 07:44 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sandy Utah
Posts: 8,774
Likes: 1,608
Liked 8,967 Times in 3,574 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt
Looks very much like an 8mm Kropatschek blank cartridge (Portuguese). Headstamp seems correct. Many of those blank cartridges came onto the market about 40 years ago. Many of the rifles came onto the market in the early 1970s. The rifles and carbines are highly desirable milsurp collectors items today. The bullet diameter of the service ball round was 0.321".
Ask of the rifles were made but Steyr in Austria. The design was essentially the same as the Mauser 71/84 with a tubular underbarrel magazine.
|
It appears this is correct! There are two things that are curious though. First the FA headstamp does not appear in on-line reference sources except Frankford Arsenal. OP showed the base diameter as .621". This is the RIM diameter that is considerably larger than the base diameter as on all rimmed cartridges. This emphasizes the problem with accepting the posters dimensions/descriptions too much as they are too often in error, whether ammunition, firearms, or other item types!
__________________
Gunsmithing since 1961
|
03-01-2024, 07:58 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 848
Likes: 3,600
Liked 5,795 Times in 818 Posts
|
|
I can hear powder inside when I shake it. I was looking at the cartridges of the world book and the shape definitely looks like something in the 8x50 family. Several types-Lebel, Austrian, Siamese.
What's with the wooden projectile?
|
03-01-2024, 08:04 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 848
Likes: 3,600
Liked 5,795 Times in 818 Posts
|
|
I measured everything again. less than scientific conditions.
Base diameter .542
Rim diameter .621
neck .350
case length 2.24
overall cartridge 3.24
it's hard to measure a 100 year old wooden projectile without risking damage to it, but it is somewhere in the .330-.335 range.
I'm using an RCBS caliper.
Last edited by 444 Magnum; 03-01-2024 at 08:08 PM.
|
03-01-2024, 08:12 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 848
Likes: 3,600
Liked 5,795 Times in 818 Posts
|
|
That definitely looks like it. Thanks DWalt.
What is the use of this wooden round?
Last edited by 444 Magnum; 03-01-2024 at 08:19 PM.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
03-01-2024, 08:16 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,739
Likes: 247
Liked 29,317 Times in 14,166 Posts
|
|
As it is a blank round with a light wooden bullet, it probably used a fast powder, maybe something similar to Bullseye. It could be black powder. As the ball ammunition became very difficult to find, the appearance of the wooden bullet blank ammunition was welcomed by shooters. They simply pulled the wood bullet and reloaded the cases with 8mm Mauser bullets and a suitable propellant. The cases used Berdan primers of an odd size. I have reloaded fired Kropatschek cases with shotgun primers. Just chuck the case in a lathe and drill a suitably sized hole through the base. I remember that I had to grind a larger drill bit to the correct diameter for a shotshell primer. I still have that modified bit somewhere. I loaded with Pyrodex, using regular 8mm Mauser bullets. I always loaded them singly, I never put a round in the tubular magazine.
Cases can be formed from .348 Win brass, but you would need to buy some very expensive forming dies to do it. I just improvised a neck sizing die.
Hard to say what the Portuguese used blank ammunition for. Maybe training or firing salutes at military funerals. Wooden bullet military ammunition was in common military use by most countries at one time. The Swedes had a device that screwed onto a rifle muzzle to break up the wooden bullet.
Last edited by DWalt; 03-01-2024 at 11:21 PM.
|
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
|
|
03-01-2024, 08:24 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 848
Likes: 3,600
Liked 5,795 Times in 818 Posts
|
|
I guess I'm ignorant so I need to ask again.
The cartridges appear to have powder in them. I can hear it when I shake them. Wouldn't that make the wood projectile launch? I've never seen a blank with any type of projectile.
I see other 8mm Kropatschek ammo lots listed as blanks with the wood projectile also. I'm trying to understand how they could be blanks with a projectile. I thought a primer charge could partially launch a projectile, let alone a primer and some powder.
Thanks again, the knowledge on this forum continues to amaze.
Last edited by 444 Magnum; 03-01-2024 at 08:32 PM.
|
03-01-2024, 08:32 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 2,811
Likes: 1,187
Liked 4,570 Times in 1,643 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by 444 Magnum
I guess I'm ignorant so I need to ask again.
The cartridges appear to have powder in them. I can hear it when I shake them. Wouldn't that make the wood projectile launch? I've never seen a blank with any type of projectile. Could it be for training purposes?
Also, how rare are these cartridges?
|
The wooden projectile breaks up on it's trip down the barrel so only small wooded pieces come out of the muzzle. I wouldn't want to be standing in front point blank when it is fired but there is little risk more than a few feet in front.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-01-2024, 08:35 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 848
Likes: 3,600
Liked 5,795 Times in 818 Posts
|
|
Thanks everyone for the knowledge and input. I would have never figured this out.
|
03-01-2024, 08:40 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 2,811
Likes: 1,187
Liked 4,570 Times in 1,643 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by 444 Magnum
Thanks everyone for the knowledge and input. I would have never figured this out.
|
DWalt's your guy. I would have bet 5 bucks that it was an 8mm Lebel from those photos.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-01-2024, 08:51 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Reedley Ca. U.S.A
Posts: 426
Likes: 11
Liked 539 Times in 221 Posts
|
|
I remember something like this being used for riot control. I know rubber projectiles were used, but seems like I remember reading about wooden projectiles being used also. I guess instead of digging lead out of your liver, you’d be tweezing splinters out of your backside.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-01-2024, 11:00 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,739
Likes: 247
Liked 29,317 Times in 14,166 Posts
|
|
This is a story about the Swede wood bullet breakup muzzle device. The idea of the wood bullet is to improve feeding and chambering of the cartridge from the magazine. I have lots of Swedish militaria but not a muzzle bullet breakup device. Swedish Blank Firing Device - General Ammunition Discussion - International Ammunition Association Web Forum
Last edited by DWalt; 03-01-2024 at 11:02 PM.
|
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
|
|
03-01-2024, 11:37 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Western MT.
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 5,049
Liked 1,041 Times in 439 Posts
|
|
I have a box of 6.5x55 ammo with wood bullets, somewhere. But here is an article on them, it might shed some light on your ammo.
Curious Relics #014: M96 Swedish Mauser Part IV - Wooden Bullets
__________________
Todd
Last edited by toad67; 03-01-2024 at 11:43 PM.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-01-2024, 11:40 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 538
Likes: 785
Liked 877 Times in 322 Posts
|
|
8x54R blank.
|
03-02-2024, 12:35 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,739
Likes: 247
Liked 29,317 Times in 14,166 Posts
|
|
|
03-02-2024, 12:59 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 2,652
Likes: 341
Liked 3,302 Times in 1,366 Posts
|
|
It looks like the cases are metallic and only the bullets are wooden.
Short range training rounds are what they are.
One of my great uncles was shot through the jaw side to side by a Japanese soldier with one of those on one of the pacific islands during WW II. Lost several molars and had to have wooden splinters pulled out of his gums and tongue, in addition to surgery on surrounding tissue.
The ones in the picture may or may not have powder in them.
Probably do, though.
Last edited by smoothshooter; 03-02-2024 at 01:02 AM.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-02-2024, 03:40 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,739
Likes: 247
Liked 29,317 Times in 14,166 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothshooter
It looks like the cases are metallic and only the bullets are wooden.
Short range training rounds are what they are.
One of my great uncles was shot through the jaw side to side by a Japanese soldier with one of those on one of the pacific islands during WW II. Lost several molars and had to have wooden splinters pulled out of his gums and tongue, in addition to surgery on surrounding tissue.
The ones in the picture may or may not have powder in them.
Probably do, though.
|
Stories of both Japanese and German use of wooden rifle bullets in actual combat during WWII are typically rumor, hearsay, and half-truth. They are unsupported by any hard evidence. The Japanese did use wooden bulleted rifle ammunition for propelling rifle grenades (as did the British), so it was certainly possible that some Japanese solders were found to be carrying some. But such ammunition was not intended for antipersonnel use by itself as it would have been extremely ineffective for that purpose.
Last edited by DWalt; 03-02-2024 at 03:44 PM.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-02-2024, 05:03 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,763
Likes: 1,645
Liked 9,175 Times in 3,391 Posts
|
|
I've got a handful of the wooden bullet Kropatechek rounds as well.
The rifle long gone, wish I still had it.
Some of the wooden bullet rounds used by some countrys have the bullets made as a hollow projectile. This to better ensure the bullet breaks up on it's trip down the bore and upon it's exit at the muzzle.
The Steyr rifling is very deep and likely helped slice the bullet into pieces if that was the intension.
The wooden bullet form likely needed so the rifle would operate as a repeated for training purposes. A simple crimped brass blank not always a workable round in all mechanisms.
I seem to recall reading that the Dutch used a hollow wooden bullet as a training/blank round in their 1895 Mannlicher rifle&carbine as well.
FA making ammo for Portugal in 1904?....hey why not. It's money and it keeps the machines and employees busy
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-03-2024, 11:02 AM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Odessa, Texas
Posts: 3,227
Likes: 4,048
Liked 3,715 Times in 1,473 Posts
|
|
I wonder why FA wasn't busy making that new 30/03 cartridge for the U.S. military.
|
03-03-2024, 12:50 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: between beers
Posts: 8,914
Likes: 4,787
Liked 6,975 Times in 3,325 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by 444 Magnum
That definitely looks like it. Thanks DWalt.
What is the use of this wooden round?
|
Wood can have a few purposes.
Training
It can put something in the general direction of a target without Private Pyle mowing down the rest of the troops to any appreciable effect.
Crowd control.
Like the rubber bullet, It'll certainly apply motivational energy upon it's recipient.
Blank.
With enough power behind it, disintegration is the expected result.
In no case is it an optimal solution. It's hard to imagine resorting to this today
__________________
it just needs more voltage
|
03-03-2024, 01:11 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Front Range of Colorado
Posts: 1,313
Likes: 1,279
Liked 1,687 Times in 628 Posts
|
|
Looking at the pictures in this thread, pretty sure "FA" is not the "FA" many people seem to think.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
03-03-2024, 01:40 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 17,868
Likes: 7,872
Liked 25,854 Times in 8,740 Posts
|
|
While I am no expert at wooden bullets, I am aware that both Germany and Japan used wooden bullets at the end of the war. They simply ran out of resources to make metal ones.
|
03-03-2024, 01:45 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,619
Likes: 4
Liked 8,973 Times in 4,160 Posts
|
|
8mm Guedes
|
03-03-2024, 02:38 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,739
Likes: 247
Liked 29,317 Times in 14,166 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockquarry
8mm Guedes
|
The 8mm Guedes was the predecessor to the 8mm Kropatschek, and had a 4mm longer case neck. They are not the same cartridge. 8 X 60R GUEDES | Cartridge Collector
Last edited by DWalt; 03-03-2024 at 02:40 PM.
|
03-03-2024, 02:46 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,739
Likes: 247
Liked 29,317 Times in 14,166 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by venomballistics
Wood can have a few purposes.
Training
It can put something in the general direction of a target without Private Pyle mowing down the rest of the troops to any appreciable effect.
Crowd control.
Like the rubber bullet, It'll certainly apply motivational energy upon it's recipient.
Blank.
With enough power behind it, disintegration is the expected result.
In no case is it an optimal solution. It's hard to imagine resorting to this today
|
If wooden bullets were the answer, armies would return to using bows and arrows. Tales of wood small arms projectiles used in combat are fictional.
|
03-03-2024, 02:58 PM
|
Suspended
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 31,038
Likes: 41,730
Liked 29,301 Times in 13,853 Posts
|
|
Ye gads!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt
|
People died of TETANUS from fired blanks?!?!? Holy Cow!
|
03-03-2024, 04:24 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,131
Likes: 36,664
Liked 941 Times in 499 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by OFT II
I wonder why FA wasn't busy making that new 30/03 cartridge for the U.S. military.
|
The FA is Fabrica Armas, a Portuguese manufacturer, not the US Frankford Arsenal.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
03-03-2024, 04:33 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,817
Likes: 167
Liked 986 Times in 492 Posts
|
|
It’s not a blank.SeveralEuropean countries used wooden bullets in their practice ammunition.
|
03-03-2024, 05:29 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,739
Likes: 247
Liked 29,317 Times in 14,166 Posts
|
|
I can't say what the wooden bullet rounds were used for, probably several military applications such as use during combat training exercises and for various ceremonial purposes. As I mentioned earlier, several armies used V-B rifle grenades with wood bulleted rifle loads as propellants. But they were not used for shooting at the enemy.
Regarding U.S. .30 military ammunition (.30-40 Krag, .30-'03, and .30-'06), there were blank cartridges of several types made and used, but none using wooden bullets were adopted for general issue.There was considerable experimentation done at Frankford Arsenal on the development of wooden bulleted .30-'06 ammunition suitable for use in machine guns for training purposes, between 1912 and 1919. There were numerous wooden bullet cartridge designs developed and tested, but in the end, none were made in larger than developmental and evaluation quantities, and none were issued. The largest lot made was 100,000 rounds.
Last edited by DWalt; 03-03-2024 at 05:45 PM.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
|
|
|
|