My father had 20-30 of these. Any ideas? The numbers on the head appear to be 1904. I can't make out the symbols other than the two stars.



Here's two different views of the headstamp-different lighting, same cartridge. Don't look at my fingers/skin...I work for a living. Thanks for any help.

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What is the approximate “bullet” diameter? I think I see F A (Frankford Arsenal) so if a U.S. cartridge I would guess .30 Army, aka .30-40 Krag.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I tend to agree Frankford Arsenal
Are there BB's in them ?
I've had them and paper ones before.

IIRC some were for parades and such.

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Definitely not .30-40 or .30-06; the shape isn't even close. Maybe 8x50Rmm Lebel?

Here's a picture of the cartridge next to a vintage .30-40 Krag.





I measured the case and here the measurements.

Overall case length- 2.25"
Overall cartridge length 3.245"
Base Diameter- .621
Neck diameter- .350
Bullet diameter- .335 (approximately-it's wood and I didn't squeeze)

Here's a better picture of the head stamp.

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It appears to possibly be a wood bullet 8mm Lebel cartridge, although OPs dimensions are off a bit. Possibly loaded at Frankford Arsenal, Philadelphia. I have no idea if any ammunition for the French was loaded by Frankford Arsenal prior to WWI, but the only FA headstamp code I find in international headstamp listings is Frankford Arsenal. Other than this I have no idea except is is probably European. Possibly the Ammunition Collectors Assn. can shed more light on this.

It definitely is not any American cartridge except manufacturer.

They have to be 8mm Lebel.

Looks very much like an 8mm Kropatschek blank cartridge (Portuguese). Headstamp seems correct. Many of those blank cartridges came onto the market about 40 years ago. Many of the rifles came onto the market in the early 1970s. The rifles and carbines are highly desirable milsurp collectors items today. The bullet diameter of the service ball round was 0.321".

All of the rifles were made by Steyr in Austria. The design was essentially the same as the Mauser 71/84 with a tubular underbarrel magazine.

See: https://cartridgecollector.net/cartr...r-kropatschek/

It appears this is correct! There are two things that are curious though. First the FA headstamp does not appear in on-line reference sources except Frankford Arsenal. OP showed the base diameter as .621". This is the RIM diameter that is considerably larger than the base diameter as on all rimmed cartridges. This emphasizes the problem with accepting the posters dimensions/descriptions too much as they are too often in error, whether ammunition, firearms, or other item types!

I can hear powder inside when I shake it. I was looking at the cartridges of the world book and the shape definitely looks like something in the 8x50 family. Several types-Lebel, Austrian, Siamese.

What's with the wooden projectile?

I measured everything again. less than scientific conditions.
Base diameter .542
Rim diameter .621
neck .350
case length 2.24
overall cartridge 3.24
it's hard to measure a 100 year old wooden projectile without risking damage to it, but it is somewhere in the .330-.335 range.

I'm using an RCBS caliper.

That definitely looks like it. Thanks DWalt.
What is the use of this wooden round?

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As it is a blank round with a light wooden bullet, it probably used a fast powder, maybe something similar to Bullseye. It could be black powder. As the ball ammunition became very difficult to find, the appearance of the wooden bullet blank ammunition was welcomed by shooters. They simply pulled the wood bullet and reloaded the cases with 8mm Mauser bullets and a suitable propellant. The cases used Berdan primers of an odd size. I have reloaded fired Kropatschek cases with shotgun primers. Just chuck the case in a lathe and drill a suitably sized hole through the base. I remember that I had to grind a larger drill bit to the correct diameter for a shotshell primer. I still have that modified bit somewhere. I loaded with Pyrodex, using regular 8mm Mauser bullets. I always loaded them singly, I never put a round in the tubular magazine.
Cases can be formed from .348 Win brass, but you would need to buy some very expensive forming dies to do it. I just improvised a neck sizing die.

Hard to say what the Portuguese used blank ammunition for. Maybe training or firing salutes at military funerals. Wooden bullet military ammunition was in common military use by most countries at one time. The Swedes had a device that screwed onto a rifle muzzle to break up the wooden bullet.

I guess I'm ignorant so I need to ask again.
The cartridges appear to have powder in them. I can hear it when I shake them. Wouldn't that make the wood projectile launch? I've never seen a blank with any type of projectile.
I see other 8mm Kropatschek ammo lots listed as blanks with the wood projectile also. I'm trying to understand how they could be blanks with a projectile. I thought a primer charge could partially launch a projectile, let alone a primer and some powder.
Thanks again, the knowledge on this forum continues to amaze.

The wooden projectile breaks up on it's trip down the barrel so only small wooded pieces come out of the muzzle. I wouldn't want to be standing in front point blank when it is fired but there is little risk more than a few feet in front.

Thanks everyone for the knowledge and input. I would have never figured this out.

DWalt's your guy. I would have bet 5 bucks that it was an 8mm Lebel from those photos.

I remember something like this being used for riot control. I know rubber projectiles were used, but seems like I remember reading about wooden projectiles being used also. I guess instead of digging lead out of your liver, you’d be tweezing splinters out of your backside.

This is a story about the Swede wood bullet breakup muzzle device. The idea of the wood bullet is to improve feeding and chambering of the cartridge from the magazine. I have lots of Swedish militaria but not a muzzle bullet breakup device. Swedish Blank Firing Device - General Ammunition Discussion - International Ammunition Association Web Forum

I have a box of 6.5x55 ammo with wood bullets, somewhere. But here is an article on them, it might shed some light on your ammo.
Curious Relics #014: M96 Swedish Mauser Part IV - Wooden Bullets

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Todd

8x54R blank.

It is actually the 8x56R. 8mm Kropatechek? - General Ammunition Discussion - International Ammunition Association Web Forum

It looks like the cases are metallic and only the bullets are wooden.
Short range training rounds are what they are.
One of my great uncles was shot through the jaw side to side by a Japanese soldier with one of those on one of the pacific islands during WW II. Lost several molars and had to have wooden splinters pulled out of his gums and tongue, in addition to surgery on surrounding tissue.
The ones in the picture may or may not have powder in them.
Probably do, though.

Stories of both Japanese and German use of wooden rifle bullets in actual combat during WWII are typically rumor, hearsay, and half-truth. They are unsupported by any hard evidence. The Japanese did use wooden bulleted rifle ammunition for propelling rifle grenades (as did the British), so it was certainly possible that some Japanese solders were found to be carrying some. But such ammunition was not intended for antipersonnel use by itself as it would have been extremely ineffective for that purpose.

I've got a handful of the wooden bullet Kropatechek rounds as well.
The rifle long gone, wish I still had it.

Some of the wooden bullet rounds used by some countrys have the bullets made as a hollow projectile. This to better ensure the bullet breaks up on it's trip down the bore and upon it's exit at the muzzle.
The Steyr rifling is very deep and likely helped slice the bullet into pieces if that was the intension.

The wooden bullet form likely needed so the rifle would operate as a repeated for training purposes. A simple crimped brass blank not always a workable round in all mechanisms.

I seem to recall reading that the Dutch used a hollow wooden bullet as a training/blank round in their 1895 Mannlicher rifle&carbine as well.

FA making ammo for Portugal in 1904?....hey why not. It's money and it keeps the machines and employees busy

I wonder why FA wasn't busy making that new 30/03 cartridge for the U.S. military.

Wood can have a few purposes.
Training
It can put something in the general direction of a target without Private Pyle mowing down the rest of the troops to any appreciable effect.
Crowd control.
Like the rubber bullet, It'll certainly apply motivational energy upon it's recipient.
Blank.
With enough power behind it, disintegration is the expected result.

In no case is it an optimal solution. It's hard to imagine resorting to this today

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it just needs more voltage

Looking at the pictures in this thread, pretty sure "FA" is not the "FA" many people seem to think.

While I am no expert at wooden bullets, I am aware that both Germany and Japan used wooden bullets at the end of the war. They simply ran out of resources to make metal ones.

8mm Guedes

The 8mm Guedes was the predecessor to the 8mm Kropatschek, and had a 4mm longer case neck. They are not the same cartridge. 8 X 60R GUEDES | Cartridge Collector

If wooden bullets were the answer, armies would return to using bows and arrows. Tales of wood small arms projectiles used in combat are fictional.

People died of TETANUS from fired blanks?!?!? Holy Cow!

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

The FA is Fabrica Armas, a Portuguese manufacturer, not the US Frankford Arsenal.

It’s not a blank.SeveralEuropean countries used wooden bullets in their practice ammunition.

I can't say what the wooden bullet rounds were used for, probably several military applications such as use during combat training exercises and for various ceremonial purposes. As I mentioned earlier, several armies used V-B rifle grenades with wood bulleted rifle loads as propellants. But they were not used for shooting at the enemy.

Regarding U.S. .30 military ammunition (.30-40 Krag, .30-'03, and .30-'06), there were blank cartridges of several types made and used, but none using wooden bullets were adopted for general issue.There was considerable experimentation done at Frankford Arsenal on the development of wooden bulleted .30-'06 ammunition suitable for use in machine guns for training purposes, between 1912 and 1919. There were numerous wooden bullet cartridge designs developed and tested, but in the end, none were made in larger than developmental and evaluation quantities, and none were issued. The largest lot made was 100,000 rounds.