Greetings everyone,

I have a specific question for you ... Do you think all Wadcutters (Brands & Variations) are equal when it comes to Self-Defense? Why or why not?

i.e. Performance: Energy and Velocity, Wadcutter Design, Etc, etc.


Is there a specific brand you like best?

Please note,
I assume most of you if not all, regard shot placement as king when it comes to Self-Defense. As for myself, I do regard shot placement as King when it comes to Self-Defense.

Underwood 150 grain Black Cherry hard cast wadcutters. 38 Special 150gr. Wadcutter Black Cherry Coated Hard Cast Hunting & Self Defense Ammo

In my uninformed opinion, wadcutters are intended for making nice round holes in practice targets. For self defense, I prefer a good jacketed hollow point. That said, I know a lot of folks say wadcutters are just fine for self defense. Thankfully, I have no practical experience either way.

Buffalo Bore makes a highly touted defensive .38 wadcutter load. It is probably more effective than a RNL bullet of the same velocity and weight but don’t know if there has been any documented use for “social situations“. The debate regarding a full caliber vs. expanding bullet will probably never be settled.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Pretty hard to beat the Federal 38 Special +P 130gr Micro HST JHP-WC...

CHEERS!

__________________
Sit Reloader Sentiret

out of a 2" J frame.

Most others out of a 4" barrel will work nicely.

Not the best choice for multiple layers of clothing like winter clothing in most states!

Many who use wadcutters for self defense do it for lower recoil. The Underwood and Buffalo Bore defeat that purpose.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/w...-self-defense/

I would opt for the Federal or Remington options being in the middle tier of power ranges.

Plus one for the 38 Special Federal 130 grain HST Micro out of short barrels!

Excellent expansion, decent penetration, and low recoil.

The problem would be finding some? Since the pandemic I have seen zero boxes available.

Nobody wants to get shot...by a wadcutter or anything else. The decision is a sound compromise.

We ALL are playing the odds, whether mortal troubles will visit upon us.

A bb gun may kill but unlikely. Having personally experienced a full power Crossman, I STILL bear the bb shaped mark from 1972. It incapacitated me for a few minutes. I "won" the dispute by shooting my brother in the face.

We were lucky, my brother-in-law lost an eye to his brother's bb gun.

My point is, a wadcutter is likely sufficient but I would unload on the target, to minimize the potential for return fire.

The 38 WC is usually dismissed for self defense but is there any real objective evidence ? The RNL lost effectiveness with the spread of drug use it seems. IMHO in its favor is that low recoiling target loads allow for better shot placement and follow up shots. Hits with Minors hurt worse than Misses with Majors.

Deming Police Officer Royce Bennett had a mix of 38 special wadcutters and semi-wadcutters in his service revolver when he fired all 6 at Billy Ray Gibson from arm's length; Gibson murdered Bennett with one shot from a 45/70 lever action. None of Bennett's rounds penetrated Gibson's pickup door.

We tend to gravitate towards ballistic tablets instead of field performance.

The benefits of the target wadcutter are great accuracy coupled with easily managed low recoil. The hot rod wadcutters aren’t as easy to manage as the target wadcutters so if you opt for Underwood or Buffaloe Bore wadcutters you’re missing the point of using wadcutters for self defense.

The optimal sd use of wadcutters is in small revolvers that can be very unpleasant to shoot with hot rod ammo regardless of the shape of the projectile.

Years ago when I goose hunted on the Texas Gulf Coast prairie, I carried a little Charter Arms .38 Spcl Undercover snubnose loaded with hollow base WC's loaded upside down, loaded to mid-range velocity, not target. I had a problem with armadillos and possums crawling through my blind in a drainage ditch. Those HBWC's made a real mess at short range into tough armadillos. I'm pretty sure they tumbled and upset in the dillos before exiting with a big spray of dillo innards. They probably weren't as good as modern bullets, but they did the job cheaply at short range.

If I could not obtain or lived where hollow point ammo is not allowed, I'd take either a full wadcutter or semi-wadcutter load rather than the round nose 38 Special load. As for which wadcutter load, all the low velocity, match wadcutters are all likely to behave exactly the same. I would expect higher velocity cast lead wadcutters to produce more recoil and penetrate deeper than a match wadcutter. I'd still prefer a modern JHP load designed for short barrel revolvers.

__________________
VCDL, GOA, NRA

I would not expect WC and most SWC to penetrate a car, although a lot of cars now are built pretty lightly. For NON-LE use, I find them acceptable. I know that the BB WC loads are recommended by a pretty savvy (ex) cop who sometimes shows up here. (He got some to take to NJ years ago.)

The better answer for most LE use is a long gun.

__________________
NHI, 10-8.

I think the Federal Gold Medal Match .38 Special 148 grain wadcutter is the best choice in commercial loads and the most widely available in my area.

It is not realistic to expect vehicle door or windshield penetration from a .38 Special wadcutter, but they do have very good penetration in ballistic gel with very low recoil and high accuracy.

The chart below shows the Winchester 148 gr wadcutter with very consistent performance, and the Federal load will be almost the same as it is loaded to the same velocity.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/

Lead SWC was known to be an improvement over LRN before the era of magic bullets. I would think a WC would be moreso by some amount. They have been suggested for use in snubs and lightweights for recoil averse persons. Also the concern about HP expansion from snubs. Of course you can push that to the max but the downside is a handful to manage in a light snub. At worst a HP that does not expand probably is about the same as the SWC solid bullet for effect. Now most WC factory loads are pretty low power as paper is not very hard to poke thru. I and maybe most people handload WC bullets so you can push them over minimal target velocity but still don't want them too hot. I would say, for close range work they are better than anything that does not expand reliably probably if you need something that does not twist your wrist.

When I wore a badge I met quite a few Coroners. The ones that carried revolvers chambered for the 38 S&W Special, all carried wadcutters. Something about results they had seen on the table.

I carried full power wadcutters when I carried a small bore.

Kevin

__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.

I don't see WC as a good option for self-defense. It makes sense under some conditions, but otherwise, not really. It will do the job at bad breath distances, but add heavy clothing and any barriers and power will be greatly diminished.

Then there's JHP 38 +p which doesn't penetrate all that well. I carry Underwood 158gr 38 special +p hard cast rounds for self-defense.

Most people do not own a..............

Navy Pea coat !!

Here's a good wadcutter:



45 Auto Rim, 225 grain WC, 950 FPS.

Flying soup cans!

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

Whatever one you can find, afford and/or shoot best in your gun.

There's no data of any type concerning which wadcutter - of dozens - is better than another.

I agree that expanding bullets are better as long as:

1 - The bullet actually does expand as intended.
2 - After expanding it has enough energy for adequate penetration.

Once you get to 9mm power levels or higher most good HP ammo can do this. At 38 Special/380 power levels or less most cartridges do not. The bullets either fail to expand or fail to have adequate penetration if they do expand. Choosing a wadcutter that might create a little bigger wound channel and penetrates well isn't a poor choice for someone that cannot or does not want to use a more powerful cartridge. As long as I am able I am going to keep using something more powerful than a regular pressure 38.

Edited to add: I do not consider wadcutters loaded up to +P or higher power levels "real" wadcutters. Wadcutter ammo should be accurate, low recoil and accurate. Loading them up to high power levels defeats their purpose.

I have some in my Ruger Speed Six.

Attached Images

	HST 1.jpg (90.7 KB, 39 views)
	HST 2.jpg (89.7 KB, 38 views)

__________________
Sceva
OGCA SWCA NRA

I wouldn't use my RAV4 to haul mulch, it's really not made for the purpose although it will work.

We used to joke at PPC matches that we'd hate to get shot with a wadcutter; they're soft lead and hollow in the back so would expand if they hit anything much harder than the B-27 targets we were shooting at. That said, I want something with some real penetrating power that are specifically designed as antipersonnel rounds, and that I can fire at velocities that heat the soft wadcutter enough to foul my barrel. Maybe a semi-wadcutter in a pinch, at least it has a bit of a point and is more aerodynamic, but I'd still prefer something with a jacket

I have one box of it left! Relegated to collector's status. Sadly, Federal's website stated that it's been discontinued. Moreover, it's very hard to come by now... in regards to online research. I should also mention that Speer's coveted SB Gold Dots are hard to come by as well. I don't know what is up with these companies these days, but it has led me to rethink my carry load (for my 642 & 442) specifically... so that I can at least train more often than not with a chosen carry load. Wadcutters seem to the fit the bill.

Personally, I'd have much more confidence in the long-track-record .38 Spl. +P 158 gr. LSWC-HP. Even if it does not expand, it will perform above the level of .38 Spl. WC target loads.
Alternately, the Speer SB 135 gr JHP's also have pretty good track record.
Deadly force encounters are dynamic and ever-changing.
An alternate would be a hard-cast 158 gr. LSWC.
Your 'target' will never be the likes of a B-27 paper target.

__________________
Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

As someone else mentioned, the Wadcutters from Underwood and Buffalo Bore were designed with defense in mind. They're supposed to be pretty stout.

I've only ever carried (typically) Federal hollowpoints in whatever caliber/weight, but am eyeing some Underwood or BB in SWC-HP+P or just good old hardcast +P for my J Frame for some stronger than typical factory loads.

I don't live in a climate where much clothing is worn in the summer or winter. So it probably doesn't matter, but shot placement and penetration is king.

Thankfully, I've also never had to shoot anyone. So, there's that...

All else fails, train to aim for the brain bucket. Most people don't have steel plates in their heads.

__________________
Go ahead... make my day.

A hundred years ago when I was a young lad, I had a chance to shoot with the local AFB shooting team (Fairchild AFB) They were in a contest with the Brit Air Force shooting team, each had sent the other a dozen of their quick response rifle. The sent us a dozen of their FALs (LIAI) and we sent them a dozen of our M-16's.
I was dinking around on the pistol range shooting a Colt officer's match .38, a lieutenant walked up and asked me if I would mine helping them out fill out a three man squad. Sure...We went down to 600 meters and banged away with iron sights with those LIA's, nice firearm, not up to par with a HKG3 but nice anyway. I nearly outshot all of their guys out of the box. In return for helping me out the Lt. handed me a coffee can of rounds and said. "I see your shooting a .38, these are our duty rounds, have fun." Inside the can was a note "148 grn hollow base wadcutter with 3.2gr. Red Dot." I noticed the wadcutters were installed backwards, it looked like looking down an ice cream cone. They were very accurate and probably hit like a Louisville Slugger. I have since modified that load slightly in my model 52, I now use 3.0 grn of Titegroup, it performs terrific and drops the brass nearly at my feet.

This is a simple case of economics 101.
Right now the ammo manufacturers can sell 100 (or more) rounds of 9mm for every 38 special (of ANY kind) that people will buy.
So they are devoting their production resources to loading more 9mm (and other more popular calibers). Simply because that is what is best for THEIR bottom line.
When the market reaches a point of being saturated with a surplus inventory of the more popular calibers, THEN they will do runs of the less popular calibers.
BUT NOT UNTIL THEN.
At least that is how I see it - JMO and YMMV.
For now, the only solution seems to be handloading your own - or paying whatever they want to charge for the less common ammo calibers.

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

Years ago I loaded a lot of HBWC that way, over the standard 3.2 grn of Bullseye. 60 cal expansion in the third milk jug when tested.

Kinman, that is still a great SD load today.

__________________
Heavily armed old man.

Paul Harrell did a video on this. Out of a 2in. J frame they performed well on the "meat target".

__________________
No baby we aint

..for a defenseive load, it would be an LSWHP. There are just too many top performing bullets for me to use something that was designed for target shooting. Sure, a wadcutter will work, but I could sand down and cut a 3/8" brass rod into lengths that weighed around 125 to 150 grains and show that they would 'work' for self defense, but it doesn't mean that they will outperform better defensive ammo that has been thoroughly tested and used in the field. My sister has a swell mod 60 .38 that she has for self defense that she kept loaded with wadcutters because that's all she had and never looked for 'real' defensive ammo. I told her that 'Yes', they would 'work', but fixed her up with some Hornady Critical Defense rounds that I had laying around.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Bill Jordan talked about using a hollow base wadcutter turned upside down so that the hollow base faced forward in order to maximize expansion on impact.

That said, I got a copy of the extensive testing done by Speer and the NYPD when the NYPD went shopping for a load that would perform well in both the two-inch and the four-inch barrels of NYPD’s service weapons at the time. The Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel was adopted by NYPD, and I like the science behind that Speer load as well as the proven street performance of the so-called “FBI Load,” the 158 grain +P LSWCHP. So, for me, Target Wadcutter ranks a distant third behind the two loads mentioned for defense use in 38 Special.

Are you sure that's a 45 Auto Rim? The case looks too long, and I can't read the headstamp.

Last time I shot a factory 38 Special Wad Cutter was back in the 1980's. My favorite comes off the Dillion SDB in my basement.

Yes. It's from Buffalo Bore's website. I have a box (it wasn't cheap) on my shelf. .45 Auto Rim Standard Pressure Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

When carrying my 625, I load these in the chambers and keep a pocketful of moon clips with with Winchester RED45 230 FMJFP - they have the same POI. I did carry 255 grain LRNFP, but they shoot high, and I ran out of rear sight adjustment.

Sadly, this thread is starting to sound like a comparison between a light racking 380 semi-auto versus a full-sized service semi-auto loaded with service ammo!

Looking at the rationale that was behind the low-recoiling 38 for people either new to self-defense guns or those with hand strength issues, the defensive use of using wadcutters fits the bill, just like a light racking 380. Given an option, I would strive more for a soft-tissue target over a rib cage shot. I think that a soft tissue hit on a predator would definitely catch the predator's attention. Just imagine the damage inflicted with a 38 (or 32) wadcutter to the abdomen.

No, the 38 wadcutter load may not result in immediate incapacitation, but it could make the predator have second thoughts!

While in today's world there is probably something better than the 38 wadcutter, a wadcutter is better than nothing!

__________________
Judge control not gun control!

I don't doubt the ammo referenced, but I agree those cases in the upper image sure do not look to be of 45 Auto-Rim length: to my eye it is way disproportional... Can't read the bottom view of the case, either. Could it possibly be their 45 Colt loading with that same bullet? It is not the image on their website.

Cheers!

__________________
Sit Reloader Sentiret

Dunno. Here's the box and round image for the +P version.

Here is Ed Harris’ view on the full charged wadcutter,

Ed Harris: Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter. – www.GrantCunningham.com

Kevin

__________________
Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Not all wadcutters are created equal.

At a place I used to work we found ourselves neck deep in Fiocchi 148gr wadcutter target ammo. It was ridiculously accurate stuff and a pleasure to shoot out of any 38. The sales manager recommended it often to purchasers of J frames for carry or nightstand ammo.

Having killed a pile of animals with lead bullets in handguns at modest velocities and knowing what a big flat nose is capable of, I agreed with his recommendation. Until one afternoon as we were having an informal shooting match in the back of the shop and I noticed that I could easily see these wadcutters in flight. Not a big deal, you can see 230gr Hardball out of a full size 1911 if you get the light just right. We then discovered that the soft wadcutters even at their low velocity would rivet and expand and give zero penetration on a sheet of 3/8” rubber conveyor belt we covered the bullet trap with, not confidence inspiring.
A little research showed nearly the same performance from other brands of match wadcutter ammo.

But having experience as stated above with killing animals up to half a ton with revolver and auto pistol cartridges, almost exclusively using cast bullets, I knew the wadcutter shape was good the issue was with the butter soft swaged bullets at very pedestrian velocities.

I have since found through experience that a cast, as opposed to swage, wadcutter and they needn’t be overly hard. Loaded to just standard 38 speeds produced by the standard 158RN, is a pretty impressive performer. They will give better penetration than any HP that actually opens, a winter coat isn’t stopping one. And they will give the best possible wound channel of a non expanding bullet. They probably aren’t going to be impressive shooting through the side of a car but nothing else you load in your Chief Special is either.

Bullets cast from wheel weights in an H&G 50 mold and loaded over 5gr of Unique, 5.5gr Power Pistol, or 4gr of W231 are a good place to be.

I looked and could not see Ed Harris article date.

__________________
S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

Many years ago, I experimented with the 148 HBWC loaded backward over 2.8 grains of Bullseye. Out of a 4", Model 19, from about five yards or so, they'd make a hole in a bank of red Virginia clay that I could shove my fist into. It was pretty impressive actually.

I was ready if I was ever attacked by a bank of red Virginia clay. I never carried them of course. Back then you had to know somebody, who knew somebody, who knew someone else to get a carry permit. I didn't know anybody. I had one box of 357 ammo I'd bought that I loaded the revolver with for "home defense" but never actually fired any of them. Too expensive to replace.

__________________
John 3:16 .

That was back in 1979 and it is sad that he was just a rookie cop. Bad guy was taken down by Florida Highway Patrol.

My question would be, "do you actually go shooting?"

A senior friend of mine got himself a 38 snubby recently because he actually went to shoot his 380 ACP pistol but it jammed on every shot. So he decided to retire the 380 ACP and get himself a 38 snubby. He bought WWB 130 grain because that is what the clerk sold him.

Here's a pic...

[IMG][/IMG]