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Tell me about the 356 TSW
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The .356 Team Smith and Wesson was a high-pressure 9mm round developed for shooting major power in USPSA Limited. Since the rules were changed to require .40 cal for major power in USPSA Limited, the cartridge is practically dead.
It never was popular outside competition.
The .357 SIG (actually a true 9mm) is a necked down .40 S&W and is currently available from several sources. It is speced to about 35,000 PSI MAX, which is quite high for a pistol cartridge.
It never was popular outside competition.
The .357 SIG (actually a true 9mm) is a necked down .40 S&W and is currently available from several sources. It is speced to about 35,000 PSI MAX, which is quite high for a pistol cartridge.
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Don't have any pressure info, maybe it can be extrapolated from the info on this data sheet?
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
Nope. 9x23Win. runs about 48000 PSi in factory loads, well above 9x19. Check out Dane Burns website: www.burnscustom.com
grendelbane
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According to Quickload, The 356 TSW has a max pressure of 49000 PSI. They list 43946 for the 9x23 Winchester.
I have no idea where either figure actually came from. I have no experience with the 356 TSW, but I always thought that the 9x23mm was loaded some where around 50K.
I do know that I have never been able to bulge a 9x23mm Winchester case, and I am using an unramped barrel. Perhaps I am too conservative, but some of my handloads actually beat the Winchester Silvertips for velocity, though not by much. I decided a factory velocity duplication load was plenty warm in that cartridge, and stopped there.
I have no idea where either figure actually came from. I have no experience with the 356 TSW, but I always thought that the 9x23mm was loaded some where around 50K.
I do know that I have never been able to bulge a 9x23mm Winchester case, and I am using an unramped barrel. Perhaps I am too conservative, but some of my handloads actually beat the Winchester Silvertips for velocity, though not by much. I decided a factory velocity duplication load was plenty warm in that cartridge, and stopped there.
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When I first started reloading for the .356 TSW back in 1993/4, there was virtually no data available (even dies were non-existent), so I called the factory and was directed to CP Bullets, they helped develop the loads for S&W & Federal. A nice gentleman there gave me some pointers and suggested highly that I stay with 147 grain bullets, as their experiments (at the time) with lighter bullets would quickly get them into "spooky" pressure ranges. He suggested that the factory loads were near the top, so I'm not sure you can mathmatically calculate pressure from the performance data, if so you got some place to start.
Back then the 9 X 21 was pretty much experimental and he indicated that the .356 TSW was above the hottest 9 X 21 loads they'd seen, from what I recall.
Back then the 9 X 21 was pretty much experimental and he indicated that the .356 TSW was above the hottest 9 X 21 loads they'd seen, from what I recall.
grendelbane
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1220 FPS with a 147 grain bullet is very impressive from a 5" barrel, and even more impressive when fired from a frame intended for the 9x19mm cartridge.
It is amazing what a few millimeters extra case length can do, however. My 9x23 will beat that 1220 mark by well over a 100 FPS, with no pressure signs. (Rifle primers, of course).
It would be fun to experiment with some thing like the 356 TSW. I am not sure what the most robust 9x19 frame would be, though. Also, not too many bullets are made to perform well at these velocities. Speed is not everything.
It is amazing what a few millimeters extra case length can do, however. My 9x23 will beat that 1220 mark by well over a 100 FPS, with no pressure signs. (Rifle primers, of course).
It would be fun to experiment with some thing like the 356 TSW. I am not sure what the most robust 9x19 frame would be, though. Also, not too many bullets are made to perform well at these velocities. Speed is not everything.
I am thankful for the info, I have been looking at the 940 in 9mm, And I am aware that a few were made in 356 tsw. I am looking at boring the cylinder of a 940 out to 9x23 so it will be able to shoot 9mm/38 super and 9x23, But I was told that the J frame cant handle to pressure of the 9x23 since it is up in the 357 range,,,, But since the J frame centennial can handle the 356, I would figure that is would be able to handle the 9x23 just fine, Not as a steady diet, But to use a self defense load.
It seems as though what I am gathering here, My thoughts are confirmed that a J frame can handle a bigger load. The 940 is not built on the magnum J frame. But still can handle the 356 tsw.
I will be sending the cylinder out to be bored this week.
Peter
Is there anything I am missing here?
It seems as though what I am gathering here, My thoughts are confirmed that a J frame can handle a bigger load. The 940 is not built on the magnum J frame. But still can handle the 356 tsw.
I will be sending the cylinder out to be bored this week.
Peter
Is there anything I am missing here?
XPman
Member
Peter, I don't know how good these loads are as I loaded them from info gathered at different places and they have not been test fired as I decided to keep my 356TSWs unfired except for factory testing...
I loaded 500 rounds with 124grs.GDHPs, 6.2 grs. Universal, Win. S.P. Primers, brass was Starline...
If anyone sees a problem with this load please let us know..
Thanks and have a good one...XPman...
I loaded 500 rounds with 124grs.GDHPs, 6.2 grs. Universal, Win. S.P. Primers, brass was Starline...
If anyone sees a problem with this load please let us know..
Thanks and have a good one...XPman...
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
I know for a fact that Dane Burns has converted at least a couple of Smith J-frames to 9x23, and I THINK they were 940s, but do not recall for sure. It's been a couple of years since he and I discussed it, and he did not have any feedback from the owners of the guns as to how they were holding up. If I were you, I'd e-mail Mr. Burns and ask him about it. I assure you that, with the possible exception of Charlie Ricco, there is no one who knows more about 9x23 than Dane Burns.
Of interest, and important: The working pressures of both 9x23 and 356TSW are actually substantially above those of .357 Magnum. However, both cases are much thicker and stronger than .357 mag. brass.
Grendelbane: Interesting that Quickload shows such low pressures for 9x23. Two weeks ago, I chronoed some old Silvertips and some 124gr. JSP WW White Box stuff (new manufacture) through the Bar-Sto barrel on my recently converted 5" Kimber Aegis. White box averaged 1531 fps., and the 125gr. Silvertips about 100 fps. less. Later production Silvertips have usually run in the 1450-1480 fps. range from 5" barrels for me. I'm getting 1390fps. with Silvertips from my 3" Aegis guns. I really don't think you can get these numbers without bumping up against 50KPSi pretty hard. Charlie Ricco's early 9x23 (before Winchester stole it from him-they paid him well for it later, after he sued them) ran up to 52KPSi, but my understanding is that the 9x23 CP brass was even a little thicker than 9x23 Win. brass.
bad_man_ one
Member
.356 TSW Pressure, Maximum Average Pressure (MAP)
This information came from the ANSI/SAMMI Z299.3 - 1993 Manual:
(American National Standards Institute)
(Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufactures' Institute)
Pressure Limits - (psi/100)
.356 TSW 147 FMJ
Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) = 500
Maximum Probable Lot Mean (MPLM) = 516
Maximum Probable Sample Mean (MPSM) = 540
That is to say 50,000 psi, 51,600 psi and 54,000 psi Max.
The only other pistol cartridges that I show the same or higher are;
9 x 23 Winchester 124 JSP
(MAP) = 55,000 psi
(MPLM) = 56,700 psi
(MPSM) = 59,300 psi
454 Casul 250 JHP
(MAP) = 65,000 psi
(MPLM) = 67,100 psi
(MPSM) = 70,200 psi
475 Linebaugh 400 JHP-XTP
(MAP) = 50,000 psi
(MPLM) = 51,600 psi
(MPSM) = 54,000 psi
500 S&W Magnum 275 Solid HP
(MAP) = 60,000 psi
(MPLM) = 61,900 psi
(MPSM) = 64,700 psi
Regards,
BM1
This information came from the ANSI/SAMMI Z299.3 - 1993 Manual:
(American National Standards Institute)
(Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufactures' Institute)
Pressure Limits - (psi/100)
.356 TSW 147 FMJ
Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) = 500
Maximum Probable Lot Mean (MPLM) = 516
Maximum Probable Sample Mean (MPSM) = 540
That is to say 50,000 psi, 51,600 psi and 54,000 psi Max.
The only other pistol cartridges that I show the same or higher are;
9 x 23 Winchester 124 JSP
(MAP) = 55,000 psi
(MPLM) = 56,700 psi
(MPSM) = 59,300 psi
454 Casul 250 JHP
(MAP) = 65,000 psi
(MPLM) = 67,100 psi
(MPSM) = 70,200 psi
475 Linebaugh 400 JHP-XTP
(MAP) = 50,000 psi
(MPLM) = 51,600 psi
(MPSM) = 54,000 psi
500 S&W Magnum 275 Solid HP
(MAP) = 60,000 psi
(MPLM) = 61,900 psi
(MPSM) = 64,700 psi
Regards,
BM1
Don't have any pressure info, maybe it can be extrapolated from the info on this data sheet?
bad_man_ one
Member
I show 125 gr. Sierras over 6.3 gr. of Universal @ 1300 fps is a good load in my book.
Regards,
BM1
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