I've had the idea for some time that it would be best to put my Perma-Gel test results in one easy to remember and find place. If anyone wants to copy and paste any of my previously posted results here (results I've posted in a format like below), feel welcome. While far from being a be-all-end-all, I believe that my test results will be a useful tool in helping people make a defensive load selection in a few different calibers. Also feel free to add any relevant test results of your own, provided they are in 10% gelatin or Perma-Gel. This will allow a more apples to apples comparison than other test media. Three handy reference that I've used are www.stoppingpower.net (test bed section, a search will yield a ton of useful data), www.brassfetcher.com ("old website" link on the home page) and www.goldenloki.com . Relavent chronograph test results are more than welcome also.

Hornady .44 magnum 180 gr. XTP JHP (9081)/5" Smith & Wesson 629.

Round #1 four layers denim/P-G, 13 3/4" pen. .764 avg. rec. dia. There are numerous secondary fragments noted.
Round #2 bare P-G 16 1/2"+ pen. ~.750 avg. rec. dia. This bullet exited block with considerable force and flattened against the fiberglass backstop. Serious fragmentation occured. There are six fragments penetrating to a depth of between 2 1/2" through 4" from the bullet's initial entry, radiating out in a cone shaped pattern roughly 2 1/4" in diameter.

Conclusions; I would be leary of this load for defense, even in cold weather, if overpenetration is a concern, from longer barrels. I do think this load would work well for hunting animals up to the size of small deer. For anything bigger I would use a heavier, or a nonexpanding bullet such as a SWC. Round #2 no doubt was much smaller when it exited the block of P-G, but was expanded by it's impact with the backstop. One might be able to use this round for hunting and Federal's excellent 180 gr. JHP offering for self defense if they fire to the same POI. There are also results for this load available at Brass Fetcher that indicate it works very well for defense from shorter barrels. I intend to chrono this load in the future. I was impressed with the quality of this product and have been with Hornady products in general. My scale does not exceed 110 gr. so I was not able to record a recovered weight.

Catalog of tests in this thread. Unless otherwise noted, all shots are fired from a range of approximately 5 feet.

#1 Hornady .44 magnum 180 gr. XTP JHP (0981)/5" Smith & Wesson 629

#4, Winchester 12 ga. 2 3/4" 1 oz. rifled slug (X12RS15)/Ithaca 87 20" Deerslayer smoothbore
Federal 12 ga. 2 3/4" 1 oz. low recoil Tru-ball (PB127LRS)/" "
Aguilla 12 ga. 1 3/4" 7/8 oz. low recoil minishell (1C128974)" "

#6, Fiocchi Extrema .380 90 gr. XTP hollowpoint (380XTP)/Kel-Tec P3AT

#7, Speer 135 gr. Short Barrel .357 (23917)/4" Smith & Wesson 586

#12, Hornady Critical Defense .380 90 gr. FTX (90080)/Kel-Tec P3AT

#14, CCI .22 WMR Maxi-Mag TNT 30 gr. Gold Dot (0063)/North American Arms 2" Black Widow
CCI .22 WMR Maxi-Mag Hollow Point +V 30 gr. (0059)/" "
CCI .22 lr. 32 gr. Stinger (0050)/" "
Federal Classic .22 lr. Hyper Velocity 31 gr. (724)/" "
Remington .22 lr. Golden Bullet 36 gr. (1622c)/" "

#27, Speer 135 gr. Short Barrel .38+P (23921)/ 1 7/8" Smith & Wesson 360 PD
Speer 135 gr. Short Barrel .357 (23917)/" "

#31, Remington .357 magnum 125 gr. SJHP (R357M1)/6" 686

#34, Remington .22 lr. Golden Bullet 36 gr. (1622c)/ 1 1/8" North American Arms .22 lr. Mini Revolver

#37, Buffalo Bore .380 +P 90 gr. Gold Dot JHP (27c/20)/Kel-Tec P3AT. Be advised .380 +P proved too hot for a P3AT and will destroy the gun in short order!!!!!!!!!!!
Speer .380 90 gr. Gold Dot JHP (23606)/Kel-Tec P3AT.

#60, Federal .38 std. pressure 125 gr. Nyclad (P38M) / S&W model 60 3"
Speer .38 +P 135 gr. Short Barrel Gold Dot (23921) / S&W 360 PD 1 7/8"
Corbon .38 +P 110 gr. DPX (DPX38110/20) / S&W 360 PD 1 7/8"
Corbon .38 +P 110 gr. JHP (38110/20) / S&W 360 PD 1 7/8"

#67, Hornady .38 spl. std. pressure 110 gr. Critical Defense (90310)/S&W 360 PD 1 7/8"

#70, Corbon .380 80 gr. DPX (DPX38080-20)/Kel-tec P3AT
Remington .380 102 gr. Golden Sabre (GS380B)/Kel-tec P3AT

#76, Winchester .44 mag. 210 gr. Silvertip (X44MS)/5" S&W 629
Federal .44 mag. 180 gr. JHP (C44B)/5" S&W 629
Remington .44 mag. 240 gr. SJHP (R44MG3)/5" S&W 629

#79, Magtech .380 First Defense 77 gr. SCHP (FD380A)/Kel-tec P3AT
Double Tap .380 95 gr. Controlled Expansion JHP/Kel-tec P3AT

#82, Corbon .44 magnum 165 gr. JHP (SD44165/20)/5" S&W 629, bare P-G

#84, Corbon .44 magnum 165 gr. JHP (SD44165/20)/5' S&W 629, 4 layer denim/P-G

#96, Federal .357 130 gr. "low recoil" Hydra-Shok (PD357HS2H)/2 1/4" Ruger SP-101
Remington .357 125 gr. SJHP (R357M1)/2 1/4" Taurus 605. 4 layer denim P-G

Good idea, flop-shank. There is a lot of gelo data out there but it's spread all over the internet and sometimes hard to find. A common reference can be very helpful.

I'll take the first crack and copy test data on Speer 135 gr. 357 mag load. It's 38 special cousin was tested many times but data on 357 mag load is sparse. It comes from Evan Marshall's site - http://www.stoppingpower.net. Along with www.brassfetcher.com, Evan's site is a great resource for gelatin tests results.

Mike

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9x19, 9x29R, 9x33R, 10x22

Thanks for your input, Hoptob. Those Speer SB .357 results are consistent with mine. They are posted somewhere in this forum.

I recently tested Winchester 12 ga. 2 3/4" 1 oz. rifled slugs (X12RS15). They proved very accurate in my 20" improved cylinder 870 express and my Ithaca Deerslayer. I felt a P-G test was in order. Since I rely on this load for defense, I wanted to know what type of penetration I was dealing with.

Winchester 12 ga. slug (X12RS15)/Ithaca 87 Deerslayer 20" smoothbore.

Round #1 Bare P-G, 16" pen. 1.083 avg. rec. dia. No significant fragmentation noted. The recovered slug is donut shaped with the inside hole having a diameter of roughly 13/32" diameter. The cardboard and plastic wads were recovered in the main wound channel right behind the slug. The test table, having been badly damaged, then repaired while .44 mag. testing collapsed on one end from the violent expansion of the gel block. It had to be rebuilt.
Numerous 2x4s used in it's construction were split lengthwise and drywall screws sheared off. The gel block, which weighs about 23 lbs. flew about 3' in the air off the test table bounced off the wall of my top secret lab and landed on the floor. This was the most brutal power I have ever seen in my testing by far.

After this test I wanted to try some lower recoil offerings to see how they compared to Winchester's in Perma-Gel. I tested the Federal 12 ga. Tru-ball low recoil 1 oz. HP slug (PB127LRS) and the Aguila 12 ga. 1 3/4" (no that's not a typo) 7/8 oz. slug. I thought the Aguila might be a useful practice and defense load for my petite wife.

Federal 12 ga. low recoil Tru-ball (PB127LRS)/Ithaca 87 Deerslayer 20" smoothbore.

Round #1 bare P-G, 16 1/2"+ pen. This slug completely penetrated the gel block and my 1" thick fiberglass backstop and was not recovered.

Aguila 1 3/4" 12 ga. slug/Ithaca 87 Deerslayer 20" smoothbore.

Round #1 bare P-G 16 1/2"+ pen. This slug completely penetrated the gel block and 1" thick fiberglass backstop and was not recovered.

Conclusions: In accuracy testing the Winchester load (holes sometimes touching at 50 yds.) was far more accurate than Tru-ball (it was a joke throwing worse than 5" groups at 50 yds.), and I couldn't get the Tru-ball to shoot to POA in my gun. It was printing way high and my rear sight was as far down as it goes. I will say that the Tru-ball was far more comfortable to shoot though. The full power Winchesters are downright brutal out of the light weight hard tail (no rubber recoil pad) Ithaca. After my range work, I have no use for Tru-ball. YMMV.

I also fired Brenneke 12 ga. 2 3/4" K.O. slugs (SL-122KO). These proved as accurate as the Winchesters, fired to the same POA and had less recoil, being about halfway between the Winchesters and low recoil tru-ball. They are also reasonably priced as are the Winchester load. I haven't fired the Brenneke into P-G because I'm planning on sticking with the american product. Brenneke's are made in Germany. They are an excellent product, but not given a clear reason to buy a foreign product, I'll buy american every time. I do think that the wadcutter-like profile of the K.O. slug makes more sense than a traditional foster slug's. More bore contact can only lend itself to accuracy.

The Aguila has yet to be tested for accuracy. I did try cycling that round through my Ithaca and both my 870s. I experienced feeding issues in all guns. In a pump shotgun the stubby Aguila round might be useful as a low recoil chamber round and also might be useful as a low recoil alternative in coach guns. Despite it's funny appearance my gel test above only indicates that it packs the goods to stop a fight, or a deer with careful shot placement.

Found it - thanks, flop. link

Mike

__________________
9x19, 9x29R, 9x33R, 10x22

That was a fun thread. Thanks for posting the link. In the pages that follow there are Remington .357 125 gr. SJHP results also. Elsewhere in this forum there are my test results for the Speer .380 90 gr. Gold dot load as well as Buffalo Bore's .380 +P 90 gr. Gold Dot load. Which leads me to a test I did recently.

Fiocchi Extrema .380 90 gr. XTP hollow point.

I recently tested this ammo because I have been looking for something that performs as well as, or better than, Speer .380 Gold dots but at a nonridiculous price (to Speer's credit, while their ammo may be expensive it is top quality and they don't seem to be afflicted by any of the quality control issue that seem to plague the ammunition industry lately). Fiocchi's Extrema line of ammunition is loaded with the Hornady XTP bullet. While I'm not a huge fan of the XTP for self defense applications and questioned how well it would be in a .380, I decided to buy a box and give it the chance to prove itself. My initial impression when I first opened the box was favorable. While I've never been a huge fan of Hornady products, they make beautiful, high quality bullets. These were no exception. Having never bought a Fiocchi product, I was impressed that the quality (right down to the nickel cases) was every bit as high as Speer's. This was good looking ammo and very uniform in it's construction. I fired two rounds in P-G with the results posted below.

Fiocchi Extrema .380 90 gr. XTPHP (380XTP)/Kel-tec P3AT

Round #1 four layers denim/P-G: 16 1/2" pen. This bullet stopped short of completely penetrating the block. It did not expand, but it's nose smashed over into a nasty flat shape on one side (45 degree angle) that was pushing one heck of a front as it tore and tumbled through the P-G. No doubt it would cause more trauma than FMJ. Once it flipped around it continued on like a wadcutter. Tracking was relatively straight.

Round #2 bare P-G: 13 1/4" pen. .477 rec. dia. Nice uniform expansion. No fragmentation was noted and tracking was straight.

Conclusions: While disappointed that I didn't get proper expansion through four layers of denim, I wasn't really unimpressed with the results either, after all .380 is a very marginal caliber with bullets operating not much above minimal expansion thresholds. I was impressed by the results in bare gel. To Fiocchi's credit, I've never tested a standard pressure .380 load that passed with flying colors. My rangework was more revealing than my gel test with this ammo. The recoil was similar to Speer .380, but my gun was not quite as accurate, nor did it function 100%. I don't think it was an issue of quality as the ammunition I tested felt and sounded totally consistent. My Kel-tec just didn't like it. I would, however, recommend trying this ammo to anyone who uses FMJ in their .380 because they are concerned with underpenetration with other brands of hollowpoint ammunition. Had the Fiocchi Extrema been 100% reliable in my Kel-tec I would be using this as a carry load since it was accurate enough for the job, about $22.00 for fifty rounds and manufactured in the United States. Put this one on your short list of good .380 loads.

Speer .357 magnum 135 gr. Short Barrel Gold Dot JHP (23917)/4" Smith and Wesson 586.

Round #1 bare P-G; 13 1/4" pen., .628" avg. rec. dia.
Expansion was full, uniform and beautiful. The bullet tracked straight with no fragmentation evident.

Conclusions: The impact with the half P-G block was not nearly as violent as R357M1 from a 6" 686, as would be expected with a load advertised as medium power. This load is everything Speer purports it to be, exibiting excellent expansion and penetration from a 1 7/8" snub through four layers of denim and, at the other end of the spectrum, a 4" gun into bare gel. I do not see this load as being as effective as full power .357 loads, but it would by all means still be very capable and is much more shootable. For those looking for a medium power .357 load, it is an excellent choice.

Did you test the critical defense .380 ammo yet?

__________________
Dom

Great info. Thanks much, flop. Good to know that 135 gr. bullet performs so well at high and low speeds. It's likely best projectile for hot 38 spl - mild 357 magnum loads.

The Short Barrel Bullet.

Mike

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9x19, 9x29R, 9x33R, 10x22

Yes, that truly is one of those rare bullets that's so well designed that it really is a standout.

No, I haven't. My order has yet to arrive. As soon as I have the opportunity to test and post, I most definately will!

Thanks!

__________________
Dom

Hornady .380 ACP 90 gr. FTX (90080)/Kel-tec P3AT

Round #1 four layers denim/P-G; 16 1/2" pen., no expansion or fragmentation. The bullet appears to have tumbled twice while tracking relatively straight.
Round #2 bare P-G; 12 3/4" pen. .436 avg. rec. dia., rec. wt. 90 gr. Tracking was relatively straight.

Conclusions: This is a good .380 load. I've never tested a std. pressure .380 JHP that didn't have expansion issues and while this one is no different, I would rather have a load that expands part of the time, but always penetrates well, than a load that always expands, but sometimes underpenetrates. Of the tests I've done, or the results I've seen, only three loads fit the first description; the Hornady FTX, Fiocchi Extrema (with nearly identical results to the FTX and featuring the Hornady XTP bullet), and the Speer Gold Dot. All three loads are of nothing but the best quality with premium components including nickeled cases. The Fiocchi is much lower priced and would be my favorite, but my gun feeds that round poorly. I will continue to use Gold Dots because they are proven in my gun and the plated on jacket is a plus if I ever have to shoot through auto glass. The FTX exibited very snappy recoil so I have no doubt it's power is on par with the other loads I like. The Hornady FTX is an excellent choice for someone looking for a .380 load provided it is 100% reliable in their gun reasonably accurate. Hat's off to Hornady for putting out a good one!

Thanks flop-shank.

__________________
Dom

You're most welcome!

CCI .22 WMR Maxi Mag TNT 30 gr. Gold Dot (0063)/North American Arms Black Widow 2"

Round #1; four layers denim/P-G. 9 1/2" pen. .330 avg. rec. dia.

Round #2 bare P-G. 7 3/4" pen. .356 avg. rec. dia.

Both bullets tracked relatively straight with no fragmentation noted.

Conclusions: I would like to see at least 3" more penetration, but the expansion was impressive and reliable. These bullets exibit all the quality and careful design of their bigger brothers. I don't know if I can trust my life to such shallow penetration, but these would be great for varmints.

CCI .22 mag. Maxi-Mag HP+V, 30 gr. (0059)/ North American Arms Black Widow 2"

Round#1, four layers denim/P-G; 17"+ pen.

Round#2, bare P-G; 17"+ pen.

Neither bullet expanded, or exibited weight loss.

CCI .22 lr. 32 gr. Stinger (0050)/NAA Black Widow 2"
bare P-G; 13 1/2" pen.

Federal Classic .22 lr. hyper velocity, 31 gr. (724)/NAA Black Widow 2"
bare P-G; 9 1/4" pen.

Rem. .22 lr. Golden Bullet, 36 gr. (1622c)/NAA Black Widow 2"
bare P-G; 9" pen.

None of the .22 lr. bullets exibited expansion or weight loss.

Been looking for data on performance of Federal 22Mag 50 grain bullets in gel, etc. They chrono at about 1250 fps from my Ruger Single Six with 4 5/8 inch barrel. Are there such data out there that I have been missing?

Ditto for 32 caliber Speer 95 grain HBWC at 700-800 fps.

Thanks,
Niklas

Niklas, if that 50 gr. bullet isn't lightly constucted so as to fragment on impact, then I'll guess it's a deep penetrator, even if it expands. That's a very heavy .22 cal. bullet. Perhaps the people on North American Arms forum will know. As for the wadcutter, as a general rule wadcutters penetrate quite deep. I wouldn't worry about underpenetration.

flop-shank,

My very limited experience with 50 grain Federal 22 Mag indicates that it is not fragile at 1200 fps, but expands nicely. No bullets recovered from shooting through "2X4"s, so no info about weight loss. Size of entry hole into 2nd board indicates expansion to 32-38 caliber.

Niklas

Ok, I was with you for a while. You have never tested 380's that didn't have expansion issues? What type of issues? What the heck have you been testing? Golden Sabers are certainly standard pressure.Nothing "hot" about them.
Shoot a Golden Saber into your jello and tell me it doesn't expand huge for a 380. and they penetrate just fine and come out with a nice chunk of 102 grain lead. No they are not 9mm and will not penetrate to FBI requirements, but they will go 10 inches and mushroom out every single time. What more do you want from a 380? They certainly don't have expansion issues.
Dpx normally expands as well but doesn't have the penetration of the sabers.
So test the Golden Sabers, they will open your eyes to the best 380 round.

Gatorhugger, I have never tested a standard pressure .380 that expanded properly through four layers of denim/Perma-Gel and bare Perma-Gel. So far I have tested the Speer Gold Dot, Hornady FTX, Fiocchi Extrema and also Buffalo Bore's .380 +P Gold Dot (which is a great expander and penetrator, but beat the snot out of my P3AT). I have seen .380 Golden Sabre 10% gelatin results on the net, but have not personally tested that load (although I have been thinking about it). In the two Golden Sabre tests I've seen, that bullet never penetrated more than 9 1/2" IIRC, and yes I do recall .60" or so expansion. I prefer more penetration than that. If you are comfortable with that amount that's your decision. Based on what I've read, it appears that Remington's engineers missed what Hornady's and Speer's didn't: Controlling the expansion of a .380 bullet so that it only expands to around .45" will put on the brakes some, but still allow deep penetration. FWIW, Speer's .380 Gold Dot did well through four layers of denim, expanding to .442" and penetrating 13" deep. That bullet actually ran into trouble in bare P-G with only one petal folding out and I suspect it was a fluke. The two loads utilizing Hornady bullets had problems with heavy cloth.

I will say that I am impressed with the variety of .380 loads available today and the level of effort the ammo makers have put into that caliber.

I'll probably see my concealed carry instructor today. I know he carries .380 Golden Sabres, so I'll see if I can score a couple rounds for a test. I have to filter and remold my P-G this weekend, so don't expect to see results posted for several days it I get the freebie Golden Sabres.

Test the sabers before you make a decision on them.
I am certainly no expert on bullet testing.
However, I have done extensive 380 testing in meat.
www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1209241627/0
The owner of buffalo bore also sent me freebies to test in their lineup including the hard casts and the Buffalo gold dots.
Every test I did, Sabers came up on top.

Of course as you mentioned it's always a trade off between expansion and penetration in a 380.
My conclusions are if you want penetration go with a FMJ, standard pressure. They will easily go through 16 inches of meat.
If you want a balance with expansion, go with the Sabers.
The results are nothing short of impressive with this particular bullet.
In fact in one test the saber 380 performed almost indentical to a 9mm HST 124 +P
Unlike gold dots, they will also break bones and keep on going.
When you recover that saber 380 and feel the heft compared to the 90 grainers, see the expansion and penetration, it's the top performer out there. It really performs almost like a bridge between the 80-90 grain premium 380's and the lighter 9mm's.

The buffalos are good stuff, but are pushing the envelope. The JHP's fragment on hitting heavy bone. They do create a pretty impressive entrance wound however and as you mentioned have a bit of "snap" to them. I would still carry them if I had enough practice to control follow up shots.

Anyway just my two cents. Sabers come out on top if you want expansion and penetration in a 380. DPX failed miserably in penetration, they parachute out almost immediately and will penetrate 6 inches of meat. NOT ENOUGH!
I think 10 inches for the saber in meat is sufficient for a 380 if we want to tradeoff some penetration. But that is a personal choice.

Not contradicting your testing, there are thousands of tests, and yours is as valid as anyones. But you haven't tested the sabers and I have extensive testing experience with primarly the 380 bullet, and Sabers certainly have no expansion issues. Whether 10 inches is enough penetration, is for each to decide. It is for me. They have low recoil, a round design with a low sloped shoulder for excellent feeding, low muzzle flash, will keep traveling through small bone and expand reliably in any water/tissue medium.
Like you said, the tradeoff is always penetration.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

__________________
John

gatorhugger - Maybe I missed it or something, but I read all six pages of your post on KTOG and never did see where you give penetration data for the Golden Sabers - only praise. Penetration data is given with all of the other rounds tested, through your meat concoction and wetpack. Data for the GS?

Thanks in advance.

floppy - Sorry for the thread drift.

rd

These golden sabers went through 6 inches of meat and 2 inches of wetpak.One inch of wetpak equaling conservatively two inches of meat. so that would be a conservative 10 inches of meat.
I have duplicated this with chicken-
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...num=1208017655
and with roasts, on and on.
I did a bunch of extensive 380 testing with different bullets and brands and for a while there like I said I was getting people sending me bullets to test. Yeah I know just a knucklehead shooting chickens.

It certainly doesn't make me an expert, just a guy having fun, and I am not denigrating Floppy's results, gel is different than meat, but I do strongly disagree about the statement that infers hollowpoints have a hard time opening up in the 380 caliber.

It's frankly not true. Not for Sabers and not for Gold dots, and not for Corbon DPX or Corbon JHP. Now it is true he didn't say all Hollowpoints have problems, but it was presented in such a way that a reader could very well interpret it that way, with a comment that he has never tested 380's that didn't have expansion issues. I wanted to set the record straight is all.

There are good 380 Hollowpoints that reliably expand in meat. People should understand that. It's not like it is a .25 that won't expand or has iffy expansion. They will expand.
Whether you like the penetration is another matter entirely.
There are bunches of tests on Box of truth, Ktog, ect. there are rib shooters and gel shooters, and water jug shooters, and phone book shooters,and sheetrock shooters, and I am just one of a thousand out shooting meat and linguini.
But rarely have I found a test showing 380 hollowpoints don't expand if hitting anything water based.
Most all 380 hollowpoints expanded reliably and consistently in every test I did. Penetration would vary, some meats are tougher, some wetpaks are wetter, but the good bullets do expand.

Thank you gator!

rd

The problems with the .380 in my tests generally involve heavy cloth. .38 spl. has the same problem because you're using a cartridge that lacks the velocity to exceed it's expansion threshold by much, especially from the short barrel of a P3AT. Also I'll mention once again that I don't know why, but bullets that pass with flying colors elsewhee seem to run into problems when they hit my denim. I like it that way. Speer SB .38 +P is an example.

I struck out getting some .380 Golden Sabres yesterday, but intend to test them at some point in the future.

Looking forward to it Sir Shank.

rd

Speer .38+P 135 gr. SB Gold Dot (23921)/1 7/8" 360 PD.

Round #1, bare P-G; 14" pen., .572 rec. diameter.
Round #2, four layer denim/P-G; 17 1/2" pen., no expansion, recovered base forward.

Speer .357 135 gr. SB Gold Dot (23917)/1 7/8" 360 PD.

Round #1 four layer denim/P-G; 14 1/2" pen. .587 rec. diameter.

Thanks F/S!
I think I'll stick with my .38+P 158 LSWCHP G/C doing 1K FPS out of a 1 7/8".
(And there's a small part of me that sort of hopes it "plugs"!)
Thanks Again!

Btt..............

f-s. Would you like to test some Super Vel 380ACP 88gr jhp?
If so - contact me. How many rounds would you need to conduct a test?

I have been collecting Super Vel for quite a few years. I have it in most all the bullet weights and calibers produced.
Bullets too- Even Super Vel primers.


282

sw282, is the S-V .380 noticeably hotter than std. pressure .380 JHPs put out by big ammo today? If not, yes.

Remington .357 magnum 125 gr. SJHP (R357M1)/6" Smith and Wesson 686-4

Round #1; four layers denim/Perma-Gel; 14" pen., .535 avg. rec. dia., 83.1 gr. rec. weight. Mild secondary fragmentation noted. Two fragments weighing 4.8 gr. each were recovered from 1" deep secondary wound channels.

Round #2; bare P-G; 12 1/2" pen., .537 avg. rec. dia., 78.5 gr. rec. weight. Very severe secondary fragmentation occurred. Wound channels vary from 1 1/2" to 2 1/2" long from their origin at the permanent cavity (one fragment penetrated 4" deep and created a wound channel ~ 3 3/4" long) and penetrate to a depth of between 2 1/2" to 4" deep, covering a 3 3/4" radius. Six fragments were recovered with an avg. wt. of 4.4 grains.

Thx for posting the data concering the Re357M1.

flop- I honestly dont know about Super Vel velocity except 180gr 44. They avg 1803fps from my M29 8 3/8" If you would like to test some of the stuff I have I can send you a few rounds of some. I could send some of different calibers. Just pm me or email
[email protected]

Test gun; North American Arms .22 lr. mini revolver 1 1/8" barrel.

Remington Golden Bullet 36 gr. .22 lr. (1622c)

Round #1 four layer denim/P-G; 8 1/2" pen.

Round #2 bare P-G; 8 1/2" pen.

Neither bullet exibited expansion or weight loss.

North American Arms Black Widow 2" test results are on page 2 of this thread.

May I suggest you "catalog" each load and gun in the first post at the beginning of the thread, and bold the line with the cartridge and gun info at the top of each thread? That would make a scan for a particular cartridge easier.

I would be interested in seeing a test on the GA Arms Ammo 44 Special 200 grain GD JHP.

Thanks.

Good idea, bro. I'll do that in the future.

Some of these results were posted before in other threads and had probably been linked to this one, but time goes on and no doubt those links are dead. So here are the results for the other .380 loads I've tested, but weren't posted in this thread. As time allows, I will occasionally add more tests in other calibers. .38 spl. will be next.

Buffalo Bore .380 +P .90 gr. Gold Dot JHP (27c/20)/Kel-Tec P3AT

Round #1; four layers denim/P-G, 12 1/2" pen., .430 avg. rec. dia. This bullet was recovered with a plug of denim smashed into it's expanded nose.

Round #2; bare P-G, 10 3/4" pen. .567 avg. rec. dia. One petal of the bullet lost it's jacket. The fragment was recovered at 4 1/4" depth inside the main wound channel.

Be advised that Buffalo Bore .380 +P proved too hot for a P3AT and will destroy the gun with even very limited use!!!!!! Do yourself a favor and just don't go there!!!!!

Speer .380 90 gr. Gold Dot JHP (23606)/Kel-Tec P3AT

Round #1; bare P-G, 17" pen. .419" rec. dia. This bullet had one petal folded out and another one was lost in the wound channel, otherwise it didn't expand. I honestly think this bullet was probably a fluke. Of well, at least it went deep.

Round #2; four layer denim/P-G, 13" pen. .442" avg. rec. dia.

Impressive numbers. I'll stay on the lookout for some .380 GDs. Currently all I can find are Double Tap.

__________________
Fast is fine;accurate is final

Rich, if you reload, and aren't adverse to carrying reloads, I can give you my Gold Dot clone recipe.

This is great info.

I'd read that Keltec had said that BB was OK to use, but your tests seem to indicate otherwise. Ruger says not to use BB in the LCP.

Where did you notice the possible problem in your Keltec? I'm curious because I've got 40 rounds of the 100 gr hard cast BB and 40 rounds of the 95 gr FMJ which I haven't tried yet in my MDE for this very reason. I may have to get a larger .380 gun for these rounds.

Do you have any data on how much hotter the BB .380 rounds are loaded? Are they still within SAAMI specs?

It was after firing the fifth, or sixth round of the first fully loaded magazine. The takedown pin was sticking halfway out the left side of the gun. One more shot would have severely damaged the gun as the pin was only supported on one side of the frame/aluminum chassis. There were several areas inside the chassis that then had to be cleaned up with a file and the gun had to be fired again before the slide moved normally when being drawn back to the rear.

I don't think there is a SAAMI spec for .380 +P and can't tell you the velocity difference between BB+P and Speer Gold Dot, but there is definately a difference in felt recoil and bullet performance. I think BB has chrono data on their website and you could chrono your gun, or find someone else's data ( www.stoppingpower.net , Speed Trap forum?) and make a SWAG.

Flop-Shank, I don't reload currently but plan to start. That time was supposed to be now but a financial setback has postponed it once again.

I haven't been too impressed by most of the factory .380 loads so have planned to create a handload, and a Gold Dot clone seems just the place to start. It's the best I've seen. When I think I know what I'm doing I'll study a little more and maybe take you up on the offer. Thank you.

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Fast is fine;accurate is final

Did you contact Keltec about the problem? Supposedly they are OK with BB. If that's the case, maybe they should know about your experience.

You're right about no SAAMI spec for .380+P. I think SAAMI is 21,500 psi, and +P normally is plus 10 pct for other calibers.

BTW I emailed BB, and they replied that their .380 ammo should really only be used for carry after verifying that it cycles and POA/POI relationship in a particular MODERN .380 gun ie not for plinking (sort of obvious given the price).

I haven't contacted Kel-tec, but will heed your advice and give them a call.

I finally tried one round of BB .380 95 gr FMJ today in my MDE. The other five rounds were S&B 92 gr FMJ. The BB round did have slightly more recoil, but nothing drastic. It did seem to shoot pretty close to POA at 5 yards.

Conchmariner, I had forgotten that I had chronoed a single round of Speer .380 90 gr. Gold Dot JHP (23606) and Buffalo Bore .380+P 90 gr. Gold Dot JHP (27c/20) from my P3AT before my near disaster during reliability testing. The numbers are:

Speer; 994 fps.

Buffalo Bore; 1084 fps.

That's a nice and very useable boost in velocity.

I also contacted Kel-tec the other day, per your suggestion, and made them aware of my experience with Buffalo Bore +P ammo.

Those are some pretty good numbers from a small gun like that. I don't have a chrono, so I don't know what I'm getting out of the MDE which has a 2.2 inch barrel. The Keltec barrel is a bit longer, so I guess you'll get higher velocity out of any given load than I would.

I'd be interested to hear what Keltec has to say about your experience with BB ammo.

Remember, each gun is a law unto itself, so you might get more velocity (or way less) from your shorter barrel.

I left K-T my phone number, but a phony e-mail. So far, no reply.

Based on your findings here, F-S, I've assembled some .380 Gold Dot, Hornady Critical Defence FTX, and threw in Cor-Bon DPX to see what my P3AT likes (and also was gifted a box of Rem. Golden Saber). It already likes Double Tap but it seems a bit hot, not as bad as your Buffalo Bore though.

I was impressed with the DPX in .40, but I haven't found much about the .380 version. I expect it would penetrate very well and expand the same. Do you have any thoughts/knowledge about the round?

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Fast is fine;accurate is final

Rich, I believe that DPX was tested at www.stoppingpower.net (do a search in the test bed forum)and www.goldenloki.com . My recollection is that it's a shallow penetrator getting between 8" - 10". The Barnes X bullet may be limited in it's ability in .380 because it's all copper construction may dictate that it give up weigh to maintain adequate case capacity, or sacrifice case capacity itself in order to maintain a decent weight (does such a thing exist in .380? ). Neither choice will help penetration. I will say that in all fairness, I haven't tested DPX myself. My hunch is that it will expand even through very heavy clothing. I would prefer to use, in order of favorite to least favorite, Gold Dots, then Critical Defense, then DPX based on what I presently know. I would try all three and feed the gun the best load it likes.