Regardless of what anyone has been told, a magazine spring will not fail from being compressed (within its design parameters). They can be left fully loaded for decades and will still work the way they are supposed to.

On the other hand, I had a ****ty High Standard magazine spring that was bad from the factory. That failed because of poor design or manufacturing.

Probably not . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Surely not -- on a factual basis that is. Your patently baseless paper clip/pistol magazine spring failure analogy notwithstanding, here is some factual information from a manufacturer of pistol magazine springs, H.C. Wolff Co.:

"Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and are subject to much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as in law enforcement and personal/home defense applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs in which magazines are loaded up only when shooting. Regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense agains failure from weak magazine springs."

Of course, that's just a spring manufacturer's "take" on this evidently highly "opinionated" subject. Believe what you want, including relevance of your paper clip/magazine spring analogy.

A manufacturer of magazine springs suggesting that magazine springs should be replaced regularly. Duly noted.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Not surprisingly, you evidently missed the part about spring fatigue due to loaded magazines for extended periods of time compared to cycling the magazine every weekend. That, of course, doesn't fit your paper clip/ magazine spring failure mode baseless conjecture.

I read the whole thing and summarized my feelings in my response. Again, your position is duly noted.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Your feelings are duly noted, next time inject some facts into a discussion, if possible.

Seems kind of mean . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Not really. I just strongly prefer dealing in facts in "technical forums" over baseless conjecture that's hardly relevant.

All good and duly noted. Please point me to any statement you have made in this thread other than the advertising statement from Wolff that factually demonstrates the expected life cycle of a magazine spring. Everything I see so far in your replies is, like you have characterized my statement, just a baseless conjecture. I'm here to learn . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Obviously you somehow missed the part about RELATIVE spring fatigue when continuously compressed vs. cycled on a weekly basis... I would be somewhat optimistic about your "learning" if you attempt to factually explain the basis of your paper clip/magazine spring failure analogy -- which you responded with. Give it a try, otherwise it will just remain a baseless conjecture.

Which post was that?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

There is a limit to how clear things can be made; I realize that I just don't have the ability to make things clear so that everybody can understand it. Carry on with your paper clip/ magazine spring failure analogy. LOL.

No, really. In which post did you offer something other than conjecture? Which post had maybe a link to a study or real world test? I'm here to learn . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I don't get what the $30 has to do with anything.

Yes over time a fully compressed spring will fail. Probably in 200 years...sure

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Quality (lack of crystal lattice imperfections) and type of steel and treatment is important for maximum life; it costs more to get higher quality metal end-product with fewer defects.

Let me know which pistol manufacturer will assure you that fully loaded pistol magazines should be reliable for decades. Have you not read my quoted statement from a pistol spring manufacturer who states (post #53, highlighted) that fully compressed magazine spring experiences more fatigue than magazine spring that's cycled on a weekly basis?

First off, you're looking for a definitive answer...which doesn't exist.
Second, a spring company telling you to change spring often if left loaded. Well ....yeah. if they told you their springs are good for 20 years how much business will the have? Also, they can't make you guarantees otherwise if one doesn't last they'll be getting complaints.
Third, HK makes some of the best mags. They cost roughly $40 or less, lettuce or not.
Fourth. Despite the fact that the ONE company tells you to change often there are hundreds of examples of people leaving mags loaded for decades. Not one or two unusual cases but hundreds. Which shows that mag springs can last much much longer than "often". Like I said, I have many mags that were formally used by militaries in different conflict areas. They have dings, dents, rust, some have holes. And they ALL still work. How long will they work for? I don't know but they have not shown signs of problems. Not one. Maybe they have another 1000 rounds in them, maybe another million. No one will ever know but after decades of hard use they are still working like new

What you're asking is the equivalent of how long will my gun/car/lawn mower/TV/radio last. No one can tell you for certain
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First off, you have been making a definitive statement that's false; namely that only cycling the mag springs "kills" them, not static compression. You don't understand what mechanical creep is, obviously.
Obviously you have not read and understood the relevant part of my post #53 -- even when highlighted. Sure, if one's life depends on a magazine spring functioning there obviously should be very little doubt that it's up to task.
Lettuce has its purpose I suppose, but has no relevance to magazine spring design, H&K or whatever.
The laws of physics are the same for all spring manufacturing companies and so is the spring wear mechanism -- which includes static compression, of course.
That's like saying that cigarette smoking doesn't cause cancer because there are 90 year-olds who have smoked since they were teenagers.

I am asking nothing, but do reject your baseless opinion that fully loaded mag springs do not fail because of static compression; in fact, static compression causes MORE spring fatigue than weekly magazine cycling (read post #53 again).

OK fine, don't load the mag. Only way to make sure it's 100%. Unless you never tested it and it turns out to be faulty. But then if you load it and it is good then it's no longer 100%

Load them, don't load them, load them only when immediately needed.... whatever. Use a single shot!

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I own in excess of 100 magazines, some older than me. My father owned twice that, some his age. Some 1911 magazines that I recently used had been loaded in excess of 30 years, reloaded them and fired them again. I recently fired some Glock magazines that had been loaded in excess of 20 years, reloaded them and fired them again. I fired a couple P7 mags last week that had been loaded since 1986, reloaded them and fired them again. I have seen hundreds of magazines on the deck, most in use for at least 20 years. Neither I nor my father ever replaced a magazine spring. Bent lips, broken followers, dented sides, broken floor plates, all yes. Spring? Never.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Although 100% reliability is not within the realm of man-made things -- I'll take 99.999% by not over-fatiguing the spring. Here we agree -- less stress on the spring means less fatigue means higher reliability. But, hey, if 10% reliability in self-defense is adequate for you -- then use 15 year old mags!

Where do you get 10%. What if it's 99%?

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I assure you that reliability of pistol magazines that have been kept continuously loaded to maximum capacity for 15 years is quite low; 10% is just a "big ball park" guess. If you believe it's 99%, then, obviously, mechanical creep doesn't exist in your universe. In any event, the point was and is that static compression is a significant factor in determining useful life and thus reliability of magazine springs -- contrary to your and some others' claims who posted here, and as pistol spring manufacturers well know. However, I'll give you credit for this: at least you did not draw an analogy to bending a paper clip!

I thought it might be helpful for everybody to read Wolff's entire response on their FAQ page to the mag spring question instead of a statement taken out of context. . . .

"How often should I change magazine spring? Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds?

Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and are the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as in law enforcement and personal/home defense applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs in which the magazines are loaded up only when shooting.

Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. In many older pistol designs, maximum capacity was not the always the goal such as with the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was room for more spring material in these guns which reduces overall stress and increases the usable life of the spring.

More recently higher capacity magazine have become popular. These are designed to hold more rounds with less spring material often in the same space. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause it to fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but it is not always practical.

In applications where the magazine must be kept loaded at all times, a high quality magazine spring such as Wolff extra power magazine springs, will provide maximum life. Regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense against failure from weak magazine springs. Regular shooting of the pistol is the best way to be sure the springs are still functioning reliably."

Wolff FAQ

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Nothing was taken out of context; however, only the relevant portion was quoted which is clearly contrary to your and some others' false notions that static compression over substantial periods of time doesn't shorten useful life of magazine springs. You evidently fail to understand the spring failure mechanism by making a baseless and irrelevant analogy to repeatedly bending a paper clip.

I am still waiting for you to factually attempt to explain how the failure of a paper clip that is repeatedly bent is relevant to failure of magazine springs that are statically compressed....

I'm pretty sure that Wolff answered that question (in the part you left out) by saying it generally doesn't, but hey, you read it your way if you want . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Are you sure you are pretty sure? What part of Wolff Co. quote has anything to do with your irrelevant and baseless paper clip analogy?

Bend metal back and forth, it weakens. Leave it alone, it's good.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Would it be worthwhile to wax new ammo if you knew it was going to be around long enough to tarnish before being replaced? I'm thinking expensive defensive ammo might well be worth it. What wax would you use?

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

If you notice your mag spring getting weak, buy a new spring or replace the mag. Don't keep using it until the bad guys come in your door and you have to shake your pistol up and down to get it to feed.

A comment often seen here is 'beating a dead horse'. I wish to propose that 'making mountains out of molehills' be added to the standard answer list.


PS Sometimes when people say that I'm beating a dead horse, I feel that they are missing the almost imperceptible movement of the horse that indicates that it still may be alive. Of course it might be moving because I'm beating it.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

The missing terms in this witty discussion are:
1] elastic deformation,
2] plastic deformation

Elastic has nothing to do with your underwear, and plastic has nothing to do with polymer parts, both have a lot to do with paper clips and mag springs.

In my mechanical engineering curriculum, Electrical Circuits was a 2 semester agony. Spring Theory and Elastic Deformation was 4 weeks of severe pain.

I will continue my walk away.

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S&WHF 366

Your bent paper clip analogy to a magazine spring under static compression (hardly left alone) is erroneous for the following reason: in the case of paper clip that's bent the mode of failure is due to exceeding the yield strength of paper clip steel due to excessive bending moment and the failure is rapid and can result in fracture; in the case of magazine spring that is statically compressed the mode of failure is mechanical creep over time -- the stress is well below the yield point of the steel and the spring becomes useless well before fracture.

That is why the paper clip analogy is erroneous; mag springs are operating elastically below yield stress BUT deform due to creep; bent paper clip stress is above yield resulting in plastic deformation and probable fracture. How can anyone not like Electrical Circuits?!?

Springs get fatigued without being overstressed. They just get 'tired'.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Fatigue, when it refers to materials as opposed to living things, is a process that permanently degrades or lowers the strength. When strength is sufficiently degraded over time, failure results, of course. Metal fatigue over time is really bad when reliability of such metal is paramount. That's why Mec-Gar, the prominent manufacturer of magazines, recommends that self-defense or duty magazines be rotated every 90 days so that magazine springs do NOT have a continuous compressive force exerted on them for extended period of time!

And what was Shakespeare's original intent?

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S&WHF 366

Well, the paper clip analogy isn't ENTIRELY wrong. If you use a paper clip for a spring and don't bend it past it's elastic limit, it acts as a spring, although not a very good one. However, just like a REAL spring it will also fatigue, probably more quickly because it's not made from the best material for springs.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

The paper clip/magazine spring analogy is entirely irrelevant and wrong because if you don't bend the paper clip -- but bending the paper clip is the premise in this irrelevant analogy-- you will not exceed the yield stress of the clip and thus will hardly likely fracture the paper clip. Sure, substantially exceeding yield stress will fracture solid metal -- but this is NOT the mode of failure in magazine springs which operate BELOW yield stress.

As others have pointed out, do not use Brasso or any other ammonia-based formulation on your ammo or cartridge cases. Very bad ju-ju.

A light cleaning with 0000-grade steel wool will remove most surface tarnish and discoloration. If that doesn't work I would suspect that the corrosion has gone too deeply into the metal for it to be trusted for further use.

"Anecdotal Evidence!"

"Junk Science!"

"Those claims of hundreds of examples of magazine springs doing something, are worthless except to start fires with..."

Sorry...couldn't resist...

Maybe we need a simulated magazine, that will act kinda-sorta like a real magazine, so we can do lab-controlled, replicable scientific studies on how magazines in the real world actually behave...heheheheh!

Magazine spring manufacturers have a long and well-established experience regarding these springs and on the basis of this highly reliable experience they state that constant compression of magazine springs does shorten useful spring life.

That's a very bad idea. Not only can tumbling change the shape and size of the granules of the powder, but the cartridges hitting each other can cause dents and even in some cases loosen whatever crimp the bullets might have. Loosening the crimp can change to pressure of the cartridge to less than it should have. Altering the shape and size of the granules can speed up the burn rate. Theres a reason while this practice has been considered a no no for many years and mentioned many times in print.

While true that some manufacturers may have tumbled ammo prior to packaging in years gone by, it may or may not still be done. Also keep in mind 40-50 years ago there was a reason why many of us started reloading, especially rifle ammo. That is that factory ammo might give us 3-4" groups at 100 yards. Our own reloads might get down to a 1/2" or smaller groups. It was not about cheaper ammo as it is now. Factory ammo still won't compete with a well developed, home grown load. If for no other reason, I personally wouldn't tumble any of my loaded rifle ammo because I want to preserve the maximum accuracy I built into it. Bullets banging against each other are a detriment to accuracy. I don't use a bullet that has fallen off the bench during the process because the lead core will be damaged by the impact with the concrete floor below my bench and harm accuracy. You can test that easily by dropping a bunch of bullets you use in a top load and then loading them and check the accuracy against previous groups. There will be a documented difference that you can see. You can also take a bunch of your best pistol load and group it. Then tumble another bunch and compare it and you will find out there is considerable difference, especially if you do it with a ransom rest.

There are people who will disagree and we all know there are people who can't be told anything they will believe. If you want to tumble your ammo to clean it, have at it. If you want to clean it with an ammonia based cleaner, fine with me. If you want to spray your ammo with WD40, go ahead. I only draw the line if you expect me to use it. I also don't see what being a long time builder of 1911's has to do with tumbling ammo and this discussion. My opinion is absolutely nothing. I built custom 1911's as an avocation from the late '70's until the early 2000's. My guns and articles about them have appeared in AMERICAN HANDGUNNER and COMBAT HANDGUNS on this side of the Atlantic and in GAZETTE DES ARMES and ACTION magazines in France. I had a pretty good reputation for that, which has nothing whatsoever to do with my knowledge of ammunition practices or reloading.

I have no doubts of that.

You use your experience/education and change your springs every 3,500 miles, I'll use my education and experience and leave mine alone. We'll both be happy. I know I am . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

If you deem your paper clip/magazine spring analogy valid and are content with your comprehension of the relevant issue -- that's just fine with me. Hopefully this discussion has been useful to some who may have learned something.

: SO...... Does the heat build up in the paper clip from all this bending back and forth cause the failure of the clip or is it just an irrelevant byproduct of bending paper clips ??

Eddie
P.S. I clean loaded ammo all the time in a vibrating polisher . Been doing it for years and have never had any problems with the ammo or brass because of it. I don't think I would use a tumbler myself but I had a friend that did and he also never had any problems.

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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

How about tumblers with stainless steel pins?

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

What you are saying is right, but you are imposing conditions that I made no mention of.


All I'm saying is that a paper clip can be used as a spring, but it would be a very poor one, even if used BELOW yield stress like a magazine spring So could a spoon, or a screwdriver. Other metals have the same properties of spring steel but in vastly different degrees.

I can go put a paper clip in my bench vise and bend it a little, and it will spring back. If I keep doing that it will at some point weaken and not offer the resistance that it did at the start. And at some point, it may not quite spring back to the original position. Like a tired magazine spring.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

QED, a few things are patently obvious.
1) You are an engineer type - probably a mechanical engineer - or at least one in the making
2) You are a bright fellow
3) You are attempting to dazzle or browbeat others into changing their minds using the two previously listed characteristics of your personality.
4) You are right - IN THEORY. You've got all the theory down pat.
5) In the real world, and based on practical EXPERIENCE, the length of time required for mechanical creep to seriously degrade the performance of a quality magazine spring is measured in decades - or even longer. Long enough to make the whole argument pointless.
6) Wolf just might be exaggerating the facts a little - they do have a vested interest in doing so since selling springs - including magazine springs - is the business they are in.

You're a new guy around here, so just a bit of friendly advice (and I DO mean this in a friendly way). Dogmatically hammering on the same point for the sake of being right isn't the way to win friends and influence people. That may be the way to win lots of admirers on a lot of forums, but not here. So you might want to lighten up a little. This is a nice place with lots of nice people, many of whom can give you the benefit of MANY years of real experience. Don't discount the value of that experience, even if it doesn't 100% line up with the theories that you've obviously learned (very well) in books.

People around here are known to do things like GIVE perfect strangers on the board parts that they could just as easily sell, just to help out a fellow enthusiast. That's the kind of place this is, BUT people don't tend to offer that kind of help to those who care more about being right and showing off their smarts, than they do about making friends, and respecting others.

BTW, not that it matters, but I am also an engineer - kinda one of those "takes one to know one" deals....